North East Buses

The FPF were surprised to see the difference in the fare between Houghton and Shiney Row on the 4, compared to the X1.
Different route, similar duration and the 4 crossing a boundary/fare zone into Co Durham - yet cheaper than the x1.

(03 Nov 2014, 9:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]The FPF were surprised to see the difference in the fare between Houghton and Shiney Row on the 4, compared to the X1.
Different route, similar duration and the 4 crossing a boundary/fare zone into Co Durham - yet cheaper than the x1.

I would have presumed it would have been the other way round since service X1 traverses a more direct route, hence less mileage, than service 4. 

You would have thought so...

Canny one today on the GNE fb page.

Someone queried a single to Stanley from Park Lane.

A single on the 8 or 78 is £4.70.
A return on the 8 is £6.80.
On the 78, a return is £5.70.

Any ideas why the two singles are the same, yet returns are different?
Blows the boundaries, zones and whatever other theories mentioned previously out of the water!

(04 Nov 2014, 5:32 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Any ideas why the two singles are the same, yet returns are different?
Blows the boundaries, zones and whatever other theories mentioned previously out of the water!

Quite frankly, nobody on this forum is going to know...

Our best bet would be to ask Customer Services about the company's 'simplified pricing structure' via e-mail, giving examples and suggesting how confusing it could be perceived, in a hope that our comments will be passed on to the Commercial Team for review.

I can foresee this thread being flooded with examples when the prices of single/return/day tickets are published on GNE's website using an online calculator...

But we can guess, surmise and speculate - until we find out the reason behind the anomalies.
Just like we have all done at times, throughout the forum.

We might get an 'insider' trying to justify the differences or we may get a formal response from GNE, which could be put into this forum.

The social media pages provide more than enough anomalies as it is - without any online fare checking facility.

(04 Nov 2014, 6:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]But we can guess, surmise and speculate - until we find out the reason behind the anomalies.
Just like we have all done at times, throughout the forum.

We might get an 'insider' trying to justify the differences or we may get a formal response from GNE, which could be put into this forum.

The social media pages provide more than enough anomalies as it is - without any online fare checking facility.

Of the 'insiders' which remain, I highly doubt any of them would justify the choices that the company have made to enthusiasts (especially on what could be considered quite a commercially sensitive matter). I suspect that they're quite limited to what they can say on forums like this as it is - as they're covered by Social Media policies - so I think that'd be asking a bit much of them...

I'm not excusing the pricing anomalies, but it's likely that they have always existed (for all companies - not just GNE). As you say, the Social Media pages provide more than enough anomalies as it is, but a couple of years ago, customers could not have queried fares using this platform and likewise I'd argue that we as enthusiasts wouldn't have discussed the topic in so much detail as a result. This extends - as we have already discussed in other threads - to operational issues. Breakdowns, missing buses, and late running buses, are all more frequently reported than they were in the past. Part of the reason why will be linked to the increasing use of Social Media.

As a general statement: I rarely check the bus operators' Social Media pages in comparison to other members of this forum, but I have seen more customers querying fares for Go North East than the other 'big two', and perhaps this is why this thread is primarily dominated by Go North East pricing anomalies. Having the largest network perhaps accounts for more pricing anomalies too, though I suspect Arriva's fares would be more regularly discussed if it was simply down to this. I honestly do think that if the purpose behind this thread was to uncover the reason behind the anomalies we have discussed, then someone volunteers to e-mail the company in question. We may or may not get justification, but I certainly believe that the Customer Service teams would pass the details onto the relevant department within the company for review...

Just thought I would start a thread to see what peoples thoughts are about pricing across the region.
 With the wide range of tickets, discounts and passes, are they structured fairly? Are they expensive or are they value for money?

That was the reason for starting the thread.

Not sure any of the questions have ever been answered, but many examples of the fares have been given.

(04 Nov 2014, 7:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]That was the reason for starting the thread.

Not sure any of the questions have ever been answered, but many examples of the fares have been given.

I don't think the original questions have ever really been answered and this thread has more so been a thread where we have all discussed single/return fares deemed to be expensive or anomalies in pricing structures. There have - to my memory - been a couple of 'positive' posts regarding fares, suggesting that something has been really good value for money, but these have been few and far between.

As an A-Level Business Studies student, I have been taught that 'value' depends on the person and their financial circumstances. If I did not possess discount cards to entitle me to cheaper travel on buses, as a student who is not earning an income, I would find adult fares very expensive indeed. However, I'd guess that most members of this forum are actually employed, and that they would deem adult fares better value for money than me, in a lot of cases.

I think that the bus operators in our region all set high prices for their single fares and it has been suggested in the past that this is linked to the reimbursement for Concessionary Travel passes. I would also suggest that single tickets are very irregularly purchased though - not because they're expensive, but because most people who go somewhere tend to return at some point that day. As I said above, 'value' will depend on the person, so it would be difficult to suggest one way or another whether return tickets are value for money, but it's been discussed in the past that day tickets which offer travel between the same destinations aren't a lot more expensive than return tickets. I personally think that Go North East's day and weekly saver tickets - especially Route Savers - are great value for money. Competition doesn't always influence these prices as some routes have (or had - some now do) competition at all yet there are still great deals to be had. A recent example I can think of is the "919 WeeklySaver" (the new GNE service which operates between South Shields, Jarrow and Cobalt Business Park): this was priced at roughly £4 more than the cost of using the Tyne Tunnel tolls alone, before even considering fuel costs.

I think travelling on buses hits the unemployed the hardest - though I seem to recall a fairly recent government scheme being in place to assist those on Job Seekers' Allowance to be entitled to cheaper bus fares providing they're going to/from the Job Centre or to/from an interview? I think I first saw details about it on a Stagecoach bus, so not sure whether it was a universal thing or not, or even if it's still around...

See, I think GNE's weekly/monthly tickets are better structured than other operators, but I think all operators have increased too far too fast.

You're right about value Dan, but when fares are rising almost double inflation, the average cost of a weekly shop is rising, fuel bills rising, the value soon becomes lost, as the said person's financial status changes. The only thing that is going down, in real terms, is take home pay. If we look at the Measuring Worth website, between 2003-2013, for example. RPI has increased over the period by 37.94%, and real wages have dropped 3.21%. That's a huge gap, and unless something gives, we're going to have a huge problem on our hands.

Unfortunately Government policy has gone from supporting people back to work, to persecuting people until they're forced to work for no pay. In Tyne and Wear, you could previously get a Network TravelTicket if in receipt of JSA. A lifeline to job seekers you'd argue.

(04 Nov 2014, 7:21 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I don't think the original questions have ever really been answered and this thread has more so been a thread where we have all discussed single/return fares deemed to be expensive or anomalies in pricing structures. There have - to my memory - been a couple of 'positive' posts regarding fares, suggesting that something has been really good value for money, but these have been few and far between.

As an A-Level Business Studies student, I have been taught that 'value' depends on the person and their financial circumstances. If I did not possess discount cards to entitle me to cheaper travel on buses, as a student who is not earning an income, I would find adult fares very expensive indeed. However, I'd guess that most members of this forum are actually employed, and that they would deem adult fares better value for money than me, in a lot of cases.

I think that the bus operators in our region all set high prices for their single fares and it has been suggested in the past that this is linked to the reimbursement for Concessionary Travel passes. I would also suggest that single tickets are very irregularly purchased though - not because they're expensive, but because most people who go somewhere tend to return at some point that day. As I said above, 'value' will depend on the person, so it would be difficult to suggest one way or another whether return tickets are value for money, but it's been discussed in the past that day tickets which offer travel between the same destinations aren't a lot more expensive than return tickets. I personally think that Go North East's day and weekly saver tickets - especially Route Savers - are great value for money. Competition doesn't always influence these prices as some routes have (or had - some now do) competition at all yet there are still great deals to be had. A recent example I can think of is the "919 WeeklySaver" (the new GNE service which operates between South Shields, Jarrow and Cobalt Business Park): this was priced at roughly £4 more than the cost of using the Tyne Tunnel tolls alone, before even considering fuel costs.

I think travelling on buses hits the unemployed the hardest - though I seem to recall a fairly recent government scheme being in place to assist those on Job Seekers' Allowance to be entitled to cheaper bus fares providing they're going to/from the Job Centre or to/from an interview? I think I first saw details about it on a Stagecoach bus, so not sure whether it was a universal thing or not, or even if it's still around...

I bring in a salary - a reasonable one.
Some members of the forum will earn more - others less.
Despite that, I do not think the majority of fares are value for money.

Due to the nature of my travel arrangements/work, I purchase single tickets. Although these sales may be in the minority - there will be a significant number sold per day and in my opinion, they are not value for money.

If I am heading to the station for a spell working elsewhere or even for leisure purposes, buying an expensive single ticket is my only option. We have already discussed the £4.00 fare from Houghton to Durham and the (now) £3.20 fare between Houghton and Chester. I need to get to Houghton first and incur any costs there! Ditto when coming home.
£8.00 plus to sit on a return journey, sometimes just 24hours apart isn't value for money.
If I am heading for a night out, the only option available is a single fare.

However, a Day Rover (or Explorer) offers excellent flexibility and value for money if travelling for the day. A return ticket isn't an option for a number of trips, due to the reduction of direct services and subsequent introduction of the hub and spoke model favoured by operators.
The Network One Anytime ticket, offers the same flexibility as a Day Rover (more than a 2/3 zone GNE ticket) when using public transport in T&W for the week.

It has already been pointed out, that paying for petrol and parking can be cheaper than using the bus.
That alone, would indicate the fares are not value for money - irrespective of income.

Touching on the theory you have been introduced to as part of your A-Levels.
Have you been told about how marketeers and organisations pursue marketing strategies, that create a higher perceived value?
An added element of luxury is added to a product - which can be a justifiable reason for said organisation to increase the price.
Those added elements of luxury, could be - I dunno, like high backed seats, air con, plug sockets and wifi.

When a customer finds out that the said organisation is actually cutting back on outlay and overheads are reducing (see QCS thread), then it can often lead to resentment, frustration or anger.
After all, why should the customer pay ever increasing prices (for a luxury product or not), when the costs in producing the service is reduced and margins tightened?

It has already been pointed out a number of times, that the prices customers are being asked to pay - are above inflation rises.
Aureolin has pointed out, that in real terms, salaries are dropping.
So according to theory you are being taught, less people will be viewing the fares offered, as value for money fares.

Just to put your position now into context with the one I was in at your age.
The Child Benefit my parents received for me, essentially covered the cost of my three zone (old zonal structure) Teen Network Travel Ticket.
That enabled me to get to work (part time) and get through my A-Levels.

Fast forward a few years, and in theory, the Child Benefit which is allocated to you - could cover the cost of your bus fares.

In real-terms, those fares haven't really increased.

Adults have been unfortunate enough to see massive increases.

(04 Nov 2014, 7:55 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]See, I think GNE's weekly/monthly tickets are better structured than other operators, but I think all operators have increased too far too fast.

You're right about value Dan, but when fares are rising almost double inflation, the average cost of a weekly shop is rising, fuel bills rising, the value soon becomes lost, as the said person's financial status changes. The only thing that is going down, in real terms, is take home pay. If we look at the Measuring Worth website, between 2003-2013, for example. RPI has increased over the period by 37.94%, and real wages have dropped 3.21%. That's a huge gap, and unless something gives, we're going to have a huge problem on our hands.

Unfortunately Government policy has gone from supporting people back to work, to persecuting people until they're forced to work for no pay. In Tyne and Wear, you could previously get a Network TravelTicket if in receipt of JSA. A lifeline to job seekers you'd argue.

Agree totally.

Sound like a broken record, but when a concious decision is made to reduce overheads, outlay etc by CEO's and the board of directors...
When investors are told margins will be increasing - yet fares continue to rise...
When those fare increases mean sharing a taxi is a viable option...
When those fare increases are coupled with the axing of direct services and you need to change buses just to get to the bank or hospital...

(04 Nov 2014, 6:49 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]As a general statement: I rarely check the bus operators' Social Media pages in comparison to other members of this forum, but I have seen more customers querying fares for Go North East than the other 'big two', and perhaps this is why this thread is primarily dominated by Go North East pricing anomalies. Having the largest network perhaps accounts for more pricing anomalies too, though I suspect Arriva's fares would be more regularly discussed if it was simply down to this. I honestly do think that if the purpose behind this thread was to uncover the reason behind the anomalies we have discussed, then someone volunteers to e-mail the company in question. We may or may not get justification, but I certainly believe that the Customer Service teams would pass the details onto the relevant department within the company for review...

Believe it or not, I very rarely check out the bus operators social media pages nowadays although I admit that I used to regular visitor in the past. The reason I checked the other day was because someone told me about the planned road-closures in the Annfield Plain area. As I work, and deliver, around the Derwentside area, those closures potentially affect me. GNE's Facebook page, I find, is a convenient and useful source of information for this specific purpose. Hopefully, I won't have any deliveries in Annfield Plain tomorrow, but at least I can plan an alternative route if need be. Anyway, I digress...

I think GNE singles can be decently priced.. For example £4.70 Stanley-Sunderland, is good I'd say compared to Arriva's £5.40 from Haswell-Sunderland on the previous service 24.
Day tickets can often to be cheaper on to north East. My only day ticket option with Arriva is a £7+ all zone ticket. Compared to the Buzzfares GNE offer. However Arriva's fare along Stockton road undercut go North East Mill Inn-Sunderland is £2.10 vs £2.70. 60p cheaper with Arriva- obviously this is almost certainly to attract custom along New Seaham-Sunderland area due to GNE's frequent services along this route.

That said GNE's simplified structure can be very confusing. 50p difference between TEN service depending if you travel 10A/10B. And Stanley-Sunderland, Same single but different return its daft really.

(05 Nov 2014, 7:45 am)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]I think GNE singles can be decently priced.. For example £4.70 Stanley-Sunderland, is good I'd say compared to Arriva's £5.40 from Haswell-Sunderland on the previous service 24.
Day tickets can often to be cheaper on to north East. My only day ticket option with Arriva is a £7+ all zone ticket. Compared to the Buzzfares GNE offer. However Arriva's fare along Stockton road undercut go North East Mill Inn-Sunderland is £2.10 vs £2.70. 60p cheaper with Arriva- obviously this is almost certainly to attract custom along New Seaham-Sunderland area due to GNE's frequent services along this route.

That said GNE's simplified structure can be very confusing. 50p difference between TEN service depending if you travel 10A/10B. And Stanley-Sunderland, Same single but different return its daft really.

You don't have to purchase a £7 day ticket - they also have triple tickets. 

(05 Nov 2014, 7:50 am)Tom wrote [ -> ]You don't have to purchase a £7 day ticket - they also have triple tickets. 

For Haswell? To Hartlepool or Peterlee
And what about Durham-Peterlee? 

As well as financial circumstance, value can also depend on location.

I live in Rowlands Gill, work in Stanley, shop in Blaydon and Metrocentre, and socialise with friends in Chopwell and Hamsterley. Occasionally, I may pop into Newcastle or Gateshead but the places I mainly travel to are within a six-mile radius of where I live.

I've already highlighted elsewhere how difficult it is getting to Stanley from Rowlands Gill, by public transport, before 8 o'clock in the morning. I need a car (or some other mode of personal transport) for this purpose. But lets pretend that particular obstacle had been overcome and a bus was provided between Rowlands Gill and Stanley which met my needs. Would I switch my mode of transportation? The answer - no. The reason why is to do with value.

To travel within a six-mile radius of my house requires purchasing a three-zone Buzzfare at a weekly cost of £31.50 (with Key Card) or £104.49 a month. In comparison, £50 worth of petrol lasts me just over two weeks. Now, one might argue that when taking into account the cost of the car, insurance road-tax etc., that the bus offers better value for money. However, because I need to the car to get to work and back, using the car represents an overall saving for me. If I had a wife and kids, some of the costs of owning a car might be mitigated against the cost of additional fares associated when using public transport. Ultimately, it may be cheaper to use public transport, but once you factor in the premium one is prepared to pay for comfort and convenience, the allure of public transport becomes less and less.

Going back to my example, I accept that boundaries have to be placed somewhere and that I am unlucky in this respect but, in my view, using the bus does not represent value for money. However, if I needed to travel to, say, Middlesbrough on daily basis, I would happily pay those same prices as I think it represents exceptional value for money.

(05 Nov 2014, 9:16 am)AdamY wrote [ -> ]As well as financial circumstance, value can also depend on location.

I live in Rowlands Gill, work in Stanley, shop in Blaydon and Metrocentre, and socialise with friends in Chopwell and Hamsterley. Occasionally, I may pop into Newcastle or Gateshead but the places I mainly travel to are within a six-mile radius of where I live.

I've already highlighted elsewhere how difficult it is getting to Stanley from Rowlands Gill, by public transport, before 8 o'clock in the morning. I need a car (or some other mode of personal transport) for this purpose. But lets pretend that particular obstacle had been overcome and a bus was provided between Rowlands Gill and Stanley which met my needs. Would I switch my mode of transportation? The answer - no. The reason why is to do with value.

To travel within a six-mile radius of my house requires purchasing a three-zone Buzzfare at a weekly cost of £31.50 (with Key Card) or £104.49 a month. In comparison, £50 worth of petrol lasts me just over two weeks. Now, one might argue that when taking into account the cost of the car, insurance road-tax etc., that the bus offers better value for money. However, because I need to the car to get to work and back, using the car represents an overall saving for me. If I had a wife and kids, some of the costs of owning a car might be mitigated against the cost of additional fares associated when using public transport. Ultimately, it may be cheaper to use public transport, but once you factor in the premium one is prepared to pay for comfort and convenience, the allure of public transport becomes less and less.

Going back to my example, I accept that boundaries have to be placed somewhere and that I am unlucky in this respect but, in my view, using the bus does not represent value for money. However, if I needed to travel to, say, Middlesbrough on daily basis, I would happily pay those same prices as I think it represents exceptional value for money.

Which is precisely why it's so difficult to shift motorists out of their cars and back on to buses - it's a mix of price, the level of bus services, and the value (utility) of cheap, modern cars. No matter how cheap the bus fare, or how frequent the service, it can rarely compete with the convenience of having your own set of wheels outside your front door.

What tips it over in the favour of public transport is other factors: eg., it costs £12 to park for a day at the Centre for Life in Newcastle if you're catching a train. Or London-style congestion charging - that's now £11.50 a day, you've got to be desperate to take a car into central London!

(05 Nov 2014, 10:20 am)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]Which is precisely why it's so difficult to shift motorists out of their cars and back on to buses - it's a mix of price, the level of bus services, and the value (utility) of cheap, modern cars. No matter how cheap the bus fare, or how frequent the service, it can rarely compete with the convenience of having your own set of wheels outside your front door.

What tips it over in the favour of public transport is other factors: eg., it costs £12 to park for a day at the Centre for Life in Newcastle if you're catching a train. Or London-style congestion charging - that's now £11.50 a day, you've got to be desperate to take a car into central London!

As a motorist, I would love the opportunity to ditch the car and save money by using the bus. But for me the incentive just isn't there. Perhaps, if I worked (and lived, and socialised) in Newcastle, I'd be more inclined to use public transport because of the frequency of service and the value of fares. However, realistically, I'd probably just either walk or use my bike more often (I do cycle into Newcastle now - when the weather permits). 

When driving into Newcastle I always manage to find a free parking location. Unlike other motorists, most of whom are prepared to pay a premium for the closest available parking space, I don't mind walking ten minutes to save a little bit of money. Perhaps I'm unique in that sense. 

@AdamY

The lack of public transport on an evening, the lack of public transport on a Sunday, the lack of direct buses and the lure of free parking at the Metrocentre or in Newcastle (away from city centre or within the city centre after 5pm) - is the reason I take the car.
Even paying for parking can work out cheaper than using public transport.

Buses were used in the past - when they were direct, when the price was perceived to be 'value' for money and when they ran regularly in to the night and on a Sunday.

The operators complain that people aren't shifting to public transport, yet put umpteen obstacles in the way.
I can't be the only one to have been persuaded to use the car over public transport?
Just look how busy car parks are in Newcastle, Sunderland, Durham, Metrocentre...

Granted others will use public transport more, but change of model in 2006 meant I use the bus less. I can't be the only one.

(05 Nov 2014, 11:50 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]@AdamY

The lack of public transport on an evening, the lack of public transport on a Sunday, the lack of direct buses and the lure of free parking at the Metrocentre or in Newcastle (away from city centre or within the city centre after 5pm) - is the reason I take the car.

Newcastle and Metrocentre are well served from 0530 - 2330 every day! Even if you have to change once!

It's the utility of the car (and rising affluence) that makes the car more attractive.

(05 Nov 2014, 12:13 pm)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]Newcastle and Metrocentre are well served from 0530 - 2330 every day! Even if you have to change once!

It's the utility of the car (and rising affluence) that makes the car more attractive.

You are right in what you say and I agree with the points you make about the difficulty of persuading motorists in switching to public transport.

However, I would be interested in your views about how to prevent bus users switching to motorised modes of personal transport. Rising affluence (and the appeal of personal mobility) both have a role to play in the decision to switch from one mode to another, but not everyone is affluent enough (especially in the North East) to do so as a matter of choice. Some are forced into that position for one reason or another. 

We are all constantly reminded about the rising costs of motoring for younger drivers. Paying around £1,500 per year insurance, in addition to other costs, would be enough to dissuade me from owning a car at such a young age. I would guess the notion of 'freedom', as well as the sense of achievement in passing a driving test, are huge factors in modal shifts in this age group. But one might argue that owning a bus pass entitles you to just as freedom at a lower cost. How do you address this without, of course, abolishing free parking and introducing congestion charges here, there and everywhere?    

(05 Nov 2014, 12:46 pm)AdamY wrote [ -> ]How do you address this without, of course, abolishing free parking and introducing congestion charges here, there and everywhere?    

You've hit the nail on the head there - the simple way to discourage motoring is to make it expensive; the easiest way to encourage modal shift is to make public transport relatively cheaper.

But also, let's not forget that it's not just about pricing, In my opinion, we're just at the start of the digital boom - these days, people shop on line, and visit retail centres for a leisure time experience. We're seeing a structural change in retail that is starting to impact on the uses to which we put our town and city centres -eg., rising numbers of smaller supermarkets rather than mega, out-of town stores; growing numbers of 'service' businesses (eg., barbers, fingernail bars, etc - ie, things you can't do on-line!) in shopping centres.

If motoring costs continue to become cheaper, and footfall in towns and shopping centres continues to fall as a result of the changing marketplace, then it's only going to be external factors - such as congestion charging - that can change the balance.

We live in interesting times!

(05 Nov 2014, 1:03 pm)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]You've hit the nail on the head there - the simple way to discourage motoring is to make it expensive; the easiest way to encourage modal shift is to make public transport relatively cheaper.

But also, let's not forget that it's not just about pricing, In my opinion, we're just at the start of the digital boom - these days, people shop on line, and visit retail centres for a leisure time experience. We're seeing a structural change in retail that is starting to impact on the uses to which we put our town and city centres -eg., rising numbers of smaller supermarkets rather than mega, out-of town stores; growing numbers of 'service' businesses (eg., barbers, fingernail bars, etc - ie, things you can't do on-line!) in shopping centres.

If motoring costs continue to become cheaper, and footfall in towns and shopping centres continues to fall as a result of the changing marketplace, then it's only going to be external factors - such as congestion charging - that can change the balance.

We live in interesting times!

Discouraging motoring by making it more expensive would surely restrict the dynamic forces of free-market economics - something that many in this country hold so dearly. I think congestion charges could work within larger cities, but beyond that will result in a lot of public outcry. Any government courageous enough to propose such a move will almost certainly see their popularity plummet and their majority in the House of Commons severely reduced. Although interesting as it may be, I think we both know it's unlikely to happen any time in the near future which means the onus is on transport providers to innovate new solutions to prevent (or encourage) modal shifts in either direction.

Making motoring more expensive also has another unintended consequence. As stated earlier, some switch to cars not by choice but by necessity due to work or other circumstances. Prohibiting the freedom of movement through cost has the potential downside of pricing people out of employment (or encouraging people out of work from pursuing employment opportunities). This has the obvious potential of placing additional burden on the welfare system at the expense of the taxpayer. 

 

After spending a week travelling around Greater Manchester whilst I can clearly see their infrastructure is vastly superior to ours, so are their prices

First in particular are grossly expensive when compared to GNE or Stagecoach

(05 Nov 2014, 1:03 pm)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]If motoring costs continue to become cheaper, and footfall in towns and shopping centres continues to fall as a result of the changing marketplace, then it's only going to be external factors - such as congestion charging - that can change the balance.

We live in interesting times!

Congestion charging is an interesting one, on balance (as a motorist) I'd be in favour of it.  For the most part I use my car for work.  Cost and convenience (and lazyness I guess) are the principle reasons for this.  I don't need my car for work, and there is no reason I can't get the bus.  I just need a 'stick' to change my habits.

A random musing - back in the 6 weeks holiday I had cause to go from sunny Winlaton to the QE Hospital.  The 69 was called for.  And it was excruciating.  Painful even.  Knocking on 50 minutes sat on a cadet as it winds its way across Gateshead at 20mph, stopping every couple of stops to wait time.  Never again.

Going home was a different kettle of fish altogether.  X1 non stop to Gateshead, straight onto an X66 to MetroCentre, then stepped straight onto a 49 to Winlaton.  The scrum dashing from the X66 to the waiting 49 suggested regulars do this too.  Seamless, although I appreciate I hit lucky with timings.  Best of all it took less time than the 'direct but around the world' 69.

The point, if there is one, is that I for one would rather change buses if it means my overall journey time is quicker.

On pricing, it did take my breath away a bit when the driver of the 69 relieved me of the best part of £5 for a purple buzzfare.  But on the way back, I felt it was good value using it 3 times.  For me, it's part psychological.  £4.85 (?) for a buzzfare is, in my mind, £5.  I've cracked a note to pay for the fare, and I can't do much (e.g buy a paper) with the change.  To all intents and purposes, I've just spent a fiver.  Weird, I know.

(05 Nov 2014, 12:13 pm)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]Newcastle and Metrocentre are well served from 0530 - 2330 every day! Even if you have to change once!

It's the utility of the car (and rising affluence) that makes the car more attractive.

Appreciate you don't always answer questions that are directed at you - but if you could (or anyone else) provide evidence of how a resident in say, Fencehouses (still T&W not Teesside and definitely not the rural hinterlands of Co Durham or Northumberland) could get to Newcastle or the Metrocentre for 0530 in the morning and get home, using a bus at 2330 (2300 is probably late enough to be honest) bearing in mind the early start) - with one change in either direction, it would be massively appreciated.


It is more or less impossible to get to/from Sunderland City Centre or Durham at those times (those being the administrative areas for both parts of Fencehouses), so it will be interesting seeing the options available to/from Newcastle or the Metrocentre.

Whilst understanding and appreciating every town and village can't have a direct bus to every other town or village - operators need to understand that not all passengers like faffing on changing buses either as part of a one off trip or regular commute.
Changing buses to get somewhere, will and does, put people off.


I have told you about it putting me off (in addition to the ever increasing costs) and I know of others (such as those campaigning during the M1/Herrington Burn fiasco) who preferred their direct bus, before the powers that be decided it wasn't important enough.
I would prefer using public transport. I want to use public transport. I drive too much and get sick of it.
The prices and impracticalities of using public transport, dictate that I use the car in the majority of cases where there is a choice.

#bringbackthe21a
#hashtagsonNEB

(05 Nov 2014, 1:54 pm)Chris wrote [ -> ]Congestion charging is an interesting one, on balance (as a motorist) I'd be in favour of it.  For the most part I use my car for work.  Cost and convenience (and lazyness I guess) are the principle reasons for this.  I don't need my car for work, and there is no reason I can't get the bus.  I just need a 'stick' to change my habits.

A random musing - back in the 6 weeks holiday I had cause to go from sunny Winlaton to the QE Hospital.  The 69 was called for.  And it was excruciating.  Painful even.  Knocking on 50 minutes sat on a cadet as it winds its way across Gateshead at 20mph, stopping every couple of stops to wait time.  Never again.

Going home was a different kettle of fish altogether.  X1 non stop to Gateshead, straight onto an X66 to MetroCentre, then stepped straight onto a 49 to Winlaton.  The scrum dashing from the X66 to the waiting 49 suggested regulars do this too.  Seamless, although I appreciate I hit lucky with timings.  Best of all it took less time than the 'direct but around the world' 69.

The point, if there is one, is that I for one would rather change buses if it means my overall journey time is quicker.

On pricing, it did take my breath away a bit when the driver of the 69 relieved me of the best part of £5 for a purple buzzfare.  But on the way back, I felt it was good value using it 3 times.  For me, it's part psychological.  £4.85 (?) for a buzzfare is, in my mind, £5.  I've cracked a note to pay for the fare, and I can't do much (e.g buy a paper) with the change.  To all intents and purposes, I've just spent a fiver.  Weird, I know.

Could you do that commute/trip 5 days a week? Do you think the £5 daily fare (granted it would be cheaper on a longer term pass) is value for money, as opposed to driving?

The changing buses part didn't bother me in the slightest.  In fact, I was pleasantly surprised by the whole thing.  Granted, I did hit lucky with times (I never checked them before I left), but if I had to make the journey again or on a regular basis I would certainly go that way.  It was noticeable how slow the 69 was trundling along, whereas on the way back I was constantly moving (at a fair rate of knots on the Centrelink section too).  Maybe I'm just impatient, I just like to be moving.

As for the buzzfare, if I'd just got the 69 back home I think I would have felt a bit ripped off.  At one point a buzzfare used to be cheaper than a day return on the 69, but dunno if it still is. The fact that I used it 3 times on the way home, left me feeling like I'd had my monies worth.  I think most people though, would just opt for a 69 for the return journey.

I've never worked out my true cost of motoring and compared it to using the bus.  My employer offers discounted buzzfare (and network one) tickets with the option of salary sacrifice, so my perception is that if I were to sign up to it, then it would represent good value.

On balance, I agree with you in that I think single fares, and even day tickets if you only use if for a couple of journies are a bit on the high side. 

(06 Nov 2014, 12:36 pm)Chris wrote [ -> ]The changing buses part didn't bother me in the slightest.  In fact, I was pleasantly surprised by the whole thing.  Granted, I did hit lucky with times (I never checked them before I left), but if I had to make the journey again or on a regular basis I would certainly go that way.  It was noticeable how slow the 69 was trundling along, whereas on the way back I was constantly moving (at a fair rate of knots on the Centrelink section too).  Maybe I'm just impatient, I just like to be moving.

I'm very much the same, and have never really understood the hate against high frequency streamlined services connecting major hubs opposed to direct round the world services.

I frequently have to make journeys to Houghton-le-Spring from the Stadium of Light Metro station - I have the 35 which takes me right there, but this takes slightly longer, so I'd rather jump off the 35 and jump onto the 20 instead.

(06 Nov 2014, 2:27 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I'm very much the same, and have never really understood the hate against high frequency streamlined services connecting major hubs opposed to direct round the world services.

I frequently have to make journeys to Houghton-le-Spring from the Stadium of Light Metro station - I have the 35 which takes me right there, but this takes slightly longer, so I'd rather jump off the 35 and jump onto the 20 instead.

Not sure hate is the right word.

I have already pointed out my issue with the streamlined direct services and it being partly based on the impact caused by the 2006 changes.

If a customer has a bus, which is affordable and takes them to the heart of a city/town and that is axed and then replaced by a journey that involves at least one change (sometimes two) and at the same time, you are asked to pay twice the price for the privilege...

Those changes, don't just impact on the customers pocket though.
It can be (and has meant), people are forced to change plans, arrangements, social lives, shifts or routines - based what can be a longer, more circuitous trip, involving hanging around at interchange points, which quite often aren't designed for that.
Before anyone suggests it, Nexus, DCC or whoever else shouldn't be left with the bill to improve the facilities based on an operators commercial choices either.

The point Chris makes about hitting lucky with the X1, X66 and 49 was interesting.
I imagine his opinion would be totally different should the journey be done regularly, facing delays or missed connections during the rush hour in the morning or afternoon.

You may like changing buses; however people with kids, shopping, bags, laptops etc don't always appreciate it - particularly when (which is the point of this thread) they pay what can be, quite a lot of money to do so.
More than they would do on a direct service...

(06 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Not sure hate is the right word.

I have already pointed out my issue with the streamlined direct services and it being partly based on the impact caused by the 2006 changes.

If a customer has a bus, which is affordable and takes them to the heart of a city/town and that is axed and then replaced by a journey that involves at least one change (sometimes two) and at the same time, you are asked to pay twice the price for the privilege...

Those changes, don't just impact on the customers pocket though.
It can be (and has meant), people are forced to change plans, arrangements, social lives, shifts or routines - based what can be a longer, more circuitous trip, involving hanging around at interchange points, which quite often aren't designed for that.
Before anyone suggests it, Nexus, DCC or whoever else shouldn't be left with the bill to improve the facilities based on an operators commercial choices either.

The point Chris makes about hitting lucky with the X1, X66 and 49 was interesting.
I imagine his opinion would be totally different should the journey be done regularly, facing delays or missed connections during the rush hour in the morning or afternoon.

You may like changing buses; however people with kids, shopping, bags, laptops etc don't always appreciate it - particularly when (which is the point of this thread) they pay what can be, quite a lot of money to do so.
More than they would do on a direct service...

We have also identified many pricing anomalies in bus fares throughout the region in this thread too. Chris pointed out that, at one point (and possibly still is the case), a BuzzFare used to be cheaper than a return ticket on service 69. One could also consider this to be another anomaly, but a BuzzFare ticket in this example would therefore allow this journey to potentially be shorter, cheaper, and have greater flexibility due to the fact a BuzzFare ticket could be used on multiple services (with higher frequencies) rather than just one.

Changing buses will always be subject to opinion, but if streamlined frequent services manage to offer the aforementioned factors, it could be argued that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Granted, this won't be the same in every example...