(12 Apr 2020, 9:14 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I wrote a message earlier this month, following on from the discussion regarding 'bail-outs'.
BSOG was mentioned. This was before the 'bail-outs'.
It's as though operators see no shame in their hypocrisy.
They certainly love a freebie, but when it comes to the discussion on regulating services, all of a sudden they become very determined to stay independent from local/national government interference.
I think the reference about sticking an oversized vehicle on a route which takes single figures - in order to receive financial incentives, is the cherry on a big fat iced incentive filled bun (which is obviously given away as a freebie, funded by the taxpayer of course).
I read your initial post and was taken aback that you didn’t seem to appreciate operators are very much taking the rough with the smooth at the moment - rest assured, buses aren’t making any money currently, they are maintaining a service for key workers at the expense of the operator.
Not sure what your issue with enhanced BSOG payments is - if we weren’t in the current Coronavirus crisis, those buses would all be out in service (making substantially more money than what they are currently), eligible for the same payments. Those same buses are still out in service now, just on different routes, so that part of this claim can still be made.
Why shouldn’t operators allocate these £225,000 assets to services after spending money on buying them in the first place?
The “bail-out” is a different kettle of fish and possibly more political. If you’ve followed Martijn’s daily colleague updates on Facebook (which are publicly available for all to view) then you’ll have heard him mention this, and how it by no means “saves” the operators, just fills a small gap in the vast losses being made currently.
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(12 Apr 2020, 9:23 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I read your initial post and was taken aback that you didn’t seem to appreciate operators are very much taking the rough with the smooth at the moment - rest assured, buses aren’t making any money currently, they are maintaining a service for key workers at the expense of the operator.
Not sure what your issue with enhanced BSOG payments is - if we weren’t in the current Coronavirus crisis, those buses would all be out in service (making substantially more money than what they are currently), eligible for the same payments. Those same buses are still out in service now, just on different routes, so that part of this claim can still be made.
Why shouldn’t operators allocate these £225,000 assets to services after spending money on buying them in the first place?
The “bail-out” is a different kettle of fish and possibly more political. If you’ve followed Martijn’s daily colleague updates on Facebook (which are publicly available for all to view) then you’ll have heard him mention this, and how it by no means “saves” the operators, just fills a small gap in the vast losses being made currently.
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No, I've not been watching any of the daily colleague updates. I'm not a colleague.
I am guessing these £225,000 assets will continue to operate services like this once the Covid19 issue has finished. Supplement the low single figure passengers with BSOG and utilise the older vehicles elsewhere, where the service doesn't need financial support of any type to survive. Or not?
Regulated or de-regulated? Which one is it?
Or is it de-regulated, with a pinch of government support - just when it suits?
Whilst the government bail out, BSOG and the ilk may fill a small gap in the finances. The point about hypocrisy still stands.
(12 Apr 2020, 12:27 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]No, I've not been watching any of the daily colleague updates. I'm not a colleague.
I am guessing these £225,000 assets will continue to operate services like this once the Covid19 issue has finished. Supplement the low single figure passengers with BSOG and utilise the older vehicles elsewhere, where the service doesn't need financial support of any type to survive. Or not?
Regulated or de-regulated? Which one is it?
Or is it de-regulated, with a pinch of government support - just when it suits?
Whilst the government bail out, BSOG and the ilk may fill a small gap in the finances. The point about hypocrisy still stands.
Surprised you're not complaining about the services run on contract from the councils as well!
In an ideal world bus operators would operate completely independently without any financial help from local authorities and government, but if they did, routes with lower passenger numbers would be dropped as they're not making money (the same way a supermarket will close a store that loses money). They need the financial support in those routes in order to keep the wheels turning.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the kinds of routes that BSOG was created for, however in reality it can be claimed on any route, regardless of its profitability, which I think is 100% wrong!
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(12 Apr 2020, 1:04 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Surprised you're not complaining about the services run on contract from the councils as well!
In an ideal world bus operators would operate completely independently without any financial help from local authorities and government , but if they did, routes with lower passenger numbers would be dropped as they're not making money (the same way a supermarket will close a store that loses money). They need the financial support in those routes in order to keep the wheels turning.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the kinds of routes that BSOG was created for, however in reality it can be claimed on any route, regardless of its profitability, which I think is 100% wrong!
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Which was amongst the reasons why de-regulation was pushed through in 86 and why the white paper was published in 85.
They wanted to achieve those things and encourage competition.
The funding continues to prop up the industry and the competition they wanted fell away in most areas.
For the operators, its win/win.
They get to do what they want, operate when and where they want and have their begging bowl to help them out.
(12 Apr 2020, 1:04 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the kinds of routes that BSOG was created for, however in reality it can be claimed on any route, regardless of its profitability, which I think is 100% wrong!
BSOG replaced FDR (Fuel Duty Rebate). Operators are able to claim this providing the bus is operating a registered local bus service - so it cannot be claimed on National Express services for example, or any closed scholars contracts, but can be claimed on any other service which is open to and used by the public.
Some interesting thoughts in the book below - specifically Page 136:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HgmDmv50AjsC&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q=bsog&f=false
It's a pretty old source and the citations aren't active anymore, but particular quotes that stand out are "BSOG lowers the cost of providing services, resulting in lower fares, a more comprehensive network of services, less congestion on our roads and a better and healthier living environment in our communities"; "BSOG also helps the Government achieve its aims of carbon reduction" (which is why there are further enhancements for low-carbon emission buses such as StreetDecks of 6p/km); "The Government has publicly recognised the value of BSOG"; "The Department for Transport's own submission to the review of the local bus market said that BSOG represents high value for money"; and "If the Government withdrew BSOG this would have damaging and wide-ranging consequences for local communities, public transport services, low-income groups, the UK economy, and the environment".
(12 Apr 2020, 1:28 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Which was amongst the reasons why de-regulation was pushed through in 86 and why the white paper was published in 85.
They wanted to achieve those things and encourage competition.
The funding continues to prop up the industry and the competition they wanted fell away in most areas.
For the operators, its win/win.
They get to do what they want, operate when and where they want and have their begging bowl to help them out.
If the shareholders stopped lining there pockets and use the money back into the UK transport system, and stop getting handouts and money incentives from the government to improve bus services, bus routes and timetables should be in the hands of the councils/local authorities and not in the hands of the bus companies, as the bus companies are running a Public service which suit themselves and forcing passengers to go via the moon to get to there destination, at the moment council/local authorities have to fork out money which there don’t have to run bus services because the bus companies says there’s no profit, bus companies need to put passengers first as there pay there wages and put profit behind, no wonder there’s a lot of passengers have decided to use the car, and now there saying there’s to many cars clogging the road system up and asking for bus priority bus lanes etc, how many employees have cars to get to work at their bus depot due to not be able to get to work by bus as it doesn’t exist or been cut or it would take about 4 or 5 times longer than the car, bus journeys are more expensive these days than car.
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(12 Apr 2020, 1:35 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]BSOG replaced FDR (Fuel Duty Rebate). Operators are able to claim this providing the bus is operating a registered local bus service - so it cannot be claimed on National Express services for example, or any closed scholars contracts, but can be claimed on any other service which is open to and used by the public.
Some interesting thoughts in the book below - specifically Page 136:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HgmDmv50AjsC&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q=bsog&f=false
It's a pretty old source and the citations aren't active anymore, but particular quotes that stand out are "BSOG lowers the cost of providing services, resulting in lower fares, a more comprehensive network of services, less congestion on our roads and a better and healthier living environment in our communities"; "BSOG also helps the Government achieve its aims of carbon reduction" (which is why there are further enhancements for low-carbon emission buses such as StreetDecks of 6p/km); "The Government has publicly recognised the value of BSOG"; "The Department for Transport's own submission to the review of the local bus market said that BSOG represents high value for money"; and "If the Government withdrew BSOG this would have damaging and wide-ranging consequences for local communities, public transport services, low-income groups, the UK economy, and the environment".
So where do we see this in practice? Are punters more used to Omnidekka's, now seeing lower fares now the StreetDecks are operating?
Did fares come down when the B9's were replaced on the X9/10?
Solars being replaced by Streetlites should have seen lower fares, rather than the increases they saw on the 20's...
(12 Apr 2020, 2:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]So where do we see this in practice? Are punters more used to Omnidekka's, now seeing lower fares now the StreetDecks are operating?
Did fares come down when the B9's were replaced on the X9/10?
Solars being replaced by Streetlites should have seen lower fares, rather than the increases they saw on the 20's...
Are you forgetting about the fact Go North East's bus fares have been largely frozen (if not reduced!) for the past two years? Very few people are paying more for their bus fares now, compared to two years ago.
I believe streetdeckfan shared an insight into Go North East's profitability recently. Certainly not making a head-turning amount of profit. So, if incentives such as BSOG weren't there and the company wanted (or needed!) to maintain existing levels of profitability, I don't think they'd be in a position to freeze and/or reduce bus fares as they have done for the past two years, or invest in as many new vehicles (to improve reliability, customer experience etc) as they have done. If that didn't happen, would more passengers have ditched the bus and started travelling by car? There's lots of questions that neither of us, nor anyone else, know the answer to, here...
(12 Apr 2020, 2:16 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Are you forgetting about the fact Go North East's bus fares have been largely frozen (if not reduced!) for the past two years? Very few people are paying more for their bus fares now, compared to two years ago.
I believe streetdeckfan shared an insight into Go North East's profitability recently. Certainly not making a head-turning amount of profit. So, if incentives such as BSOG weren't there and the company wanted (or needed!) to maintain existing levels of profitability, I don't think they'd be in a position to freeze and/or reduce bus fares as they have done for the past two years.
Two years of freezes, as opposed to how many years of increases - despite the BSOG?
You will have seen the above inflation price increases quoted in the pricing thread - despite the BSOG, the increase in more fuel efficient vehicles and the fall in hedged fuel prices.
I am sure it would be more than viable to operate services without BSOG.
After all many other businesses manage without grants and continue to turn a profit.
They price to suit their audience too.
Within the pricing thread, there are links to all sorts of models and theories relating to pricing structures, elasticity, inelasticity etc.
I won't repeat it all in this thread, but it goes without saying that lowering prices doesn't always affect profit levels in a negative context. It can have quite the opposite effect.
Edit. There's many an update to this, but shared this specific link a couple of years back.
Eye watering...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...incentives
(07 Apr 2020, 3:31 pm)Wybus wrote [ -> ]I've had a look, and the main changes seem to be
2 - journey time sped up so no longer had lots of layover at Vicarage Estate
6 - reduced from hourly to every 2 hours
20 - South Shields to Sunderland part reduced from every 30 mins to hourly
23N - reduced from a 2 bus every 30/60 mins service to every 90 mins full route
25 - reduced from hourly to every 2 hours
28 - reduced from hourly to every 2 hours
29 - withdrawn
30 - reduced from hourly to every 2 hours
33 - now only runs Sunderland to Docks not to Vicarage Estate
38C - now runs as a 38
700/702 - both reduced from every 30 mins to hourly each
Q1/Q2 - no longer runs Gateshead to Newcastle via Quayside
V1 - withdrawn
V5 - withdrawn
V9 - withdrawn
X5 - Lanchester to Durham section reduced from hourly to every 2 hours
X10 - reduced from hourly to every 190 minutes
X21 - now only runs Bishop Auckland to Durham continuing as a 21 to Newcastle
X30 - Consett to Stanley section withdrawn
It seems since I posted this GNE have slightly revised the changes
Service 30 stays hourly
Services V1 & V5 are retained and not withdrawn
Service X5 is now every 2 hours full route with no Lanchester shorts
(12 Apr 2020, 2:16 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Are you forgetting about the fact Go North East's bus fares have been largely frozen (if not reduced!) for the past two years? Very few people are paying more for their bus fares now, compared to two years ago.
I believe streetdeckfan shared an insight into Go North East's profitability recently. Certainly not making a head-turning amount of profit. So, if incentives such as BSOG weren't there and the company wanted (or needed!) to maintain existing levels of profitability, I don't think they'd be in a position to freeze and/or reduce bus fares as they have done for the past two years, or invest in as many new vehicles (to improve reliability, customer experience etc) as they have done. If that didn't happen, would more passengers have ditched the bus and started travelling by car? There's lots of questions that neither of us, nor anyone else, know the answer to, here...
Although GNE's fare are slightly more in some aspects, at least they have been investing in their fleet. In GNE's defence, the price of a single fare on a competing route to the nearest stop close to my house where the route operates is only 40p cheaper compared to the GNE route that I 99% of the time use. Yet, the route in question ended up getting older ex Yorkshire cascades when the B5LH's went to Yorkshire rather than getting new vehicles. Yes they were refurbished but in comparison to the treatment 6099-6117 got, they're poor from a passenger perspective.
(12 Apr 2020, 4:41 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Although GNE's fare are slightly more in some aspects, at least they have been investing in their fleet. In GNE's defence, the price of a single fare on a competing route to the nearest stop close to my house where the route operates is only 40p cheaper compared to the GNE route that I 99% of the time use. Yet, the route in question ended up getting older ex Yorkshire cascades when the B5LH's went to Yorkshire rather than getting new vehicles. Yes they were refurbished but in comparison to the treatment 6099-6117 got, they're poor from a passenger perspective.
On the section of the Arriva 6 that I use between Bishop and Tindale, it's £1.40 compared to £1.60 with GNE. GNE's price went up from £1.50 last year, whereas when Arriva changed their prices it stayed the same.
Having said that, now they go the same route I'd happily pay the extra 20p to travel on a StreetDeck
I believe GNE is actually cheaper to West Auckland though as it's still only £1.60
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(11 Apr 2020, 2:09 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Deptford
X1 - Fab56 Volvo B9
Riverside
X66 - Green Arrow E200
33A - Green Arrow E200
67/69 & M6 - Durham Diamond Streetlite
1A - Xlines Streetdeck
434 448 - Xlines Streetdeck
Based on this I'm guessing some more buses to be mothballed will be the last remaining Red Arrow Gemini's, the X66 Streetlites and a number of Cobalt & Coast Gemini?
(12 Apr 2020, 10:23 pm)Wybus wrote [ -> ]Based on this I'm guessing some more buses to be mothballed will be the last remaining Red Arrow Gemini's, the X66 Streetlites and a number of Cobalt & Coast Gemini?
6049 is the last X1 standing tonight according to the app
(12 Apr 2020, 10:23 pm)Wybus wrote [ -> ]Based on this I'm guessing some more buses to be mothballed will be the last remaining Red Arrow Gemini's, the X66 Streetlites and a number of Cobalt & Coast Gemini?
Correct. 466 buses now parked up (67% of fleet!)
Enthusiast Area on GNE's website now updated:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/about/enthusiast-area/
From Saturday 18 April, there will be some changes to services 202, 204, 208, 239 and 265 - each service will run once every two hours. You can preview the new timetables by skipping the date ahead on the timetable page.
I've already changed the date to the 18th April:
202:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/G...2020-04-18&direction=inbound
204:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/G...2020-04-18&direction=outbound
208:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/G...2020-04-18&direction=inbound
239:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/G...2020-04-18&direction=inbound
265:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/G...2020-04-18&direction=inbound
New Peterlee PVRs:
202: 2 PVR
204/208 - 2 PVR
265: 1 PVR
Other services (the ones not changing)
201: 1 PVR
206: 1 PVR
210: 1 PVR
Total: 8 PVR (239 not included but is 1 PVR on a night)
(17 Apr 2020, 10:04 am)N1cholas wrote [ -> ]the 14 was supposed to be getting split from the X22, dont know if that will happen once the covid-19 lock-down is relaxed and things get back to normal
Sure i heard that was part of the May changes, which has been cancelled until a further date.
------------
Confirmed that Toon Tour will not go ahead this year... was hoping it would start at a later date but that won't happen now.
PB0003954/1154 Cancelled (Short notice)
GO NORTH EAST LIMITED
Route: Newcastle Central Station to Newcastle Central Station via Quayside
Service number: Toon Tour
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 03 Apr 2020
By my calculations, the PVR is now about 168 buses. It's normally, including National Express something like 580.
Hexham 9, Riverside 81, Deptford 55, Consett 16, Peterlee 7
This excludes the staff shuttle buses and rail replacement services that have been mentioned in previous posts recently
(19 Apr 2020, 1:47 pm)Wybus wrote [ -> ]By my calculations, the PVR is now about 168 buses. It's normally, including National Express something like 580.
Hexham 9, Riverside 81, Deptford 55, Consett 16, Peterlee 7
This excludes the staff shuttle buses and rail replacement services that have been mentioned in previous posts recently
Didn't know it was that many.
Given the situation we're currently in, are GNE taking the opportunity to gather performance information on various vehicle types on various routes?
i.e E400MMCs on 45 (could be compared against pending new StreetDecks); StreetDecks on 1A (performance on route)
(21 Apr 2020, 10:17 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Given the situation we're currently in, are GNE taking the opportunity to gather performance information on various vehicle types on various routes?
i.e E400MMCs on 45 (could be compared against pending new StreetDecks); StreetDecks on 1A (performance on route)
Hopefully they are, would defiantly give them some good feedback.
Wonder if the 2020-2021 order has gone in yet?
