North East Buses

(03 Apr 2020, 4:48 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]Erm yes. That's what the union is there for, and company performance is assessed to see what is a reasonable demand 

I said virtually the same thing regarding the way London operators are paid - that it isn't based on fares taken because London is by and large tap and go. Routes in the North East are also created for the public benefit, but are only operated if commercially viable - if they aren't, then the local authority or Nexus will decide whether it is an essential service which needs to be kept running even if it is running at a loss.

First, you're on about staff and now you're talking about the Union. The union are not employed by any bus company, they are a separate body who are supposed to represent bus company staff. There are no staff members who care about how much the company makes before requesting a bonus. I certainly have never had that thought. These companies have a lot of money are there are other avenues that earn them revenue such as advertisements.

London isn't by large tap and go. There is no alternative, its just tap and go by the way. 

Routes up here are created for the shareholders, however, it may indirectly benefit the customer. The number of variations in routes, with some trips on duties being funded by Nexus will tell you that they aren't run for the customer, it's purely for profit. Tfl is a non-profit organisation who rely on a subsidy of sorts to keep them running. All the money they make is reinvested and benefits are widely seen. The network is easier to understand for any passenger, promotion is good, branding is good etc. It helps growth. 

Nexus is the only organisation that cares about the passenger, they are happy to fund a route for 6 hours that carries around 12 people, why? Because they get a subsidy from NECA. They are trying to adopt a similar approach to Tfl just like the big cities in England such as Birmingham and Manchester who realise that have companies dictate too much of the network isn't a good thing as it really doesn't benefit the customer. The coast road is a prime example, I often see 308s and 309s running very close together, its ridiculous.

(03 Apr 2020, 11:32 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]No doubt though that there'll be people queing in Walkergate, Wallsend, Howdon, Chirton and North Shields (Coaster route) to go for a "day out" in Tynemouth, Cullercoates and Whitley Bay. Police can close the beaches off but people will still try and go for a wander along the seafront. 

Could be a similar scenario on the Coast Road with the 306, 308 & 309 and people heading to Tynemouth,Whitley Bay, Seaton Sluice and Blyth.

All good police patrolling the Coast but non essential travel particularly on the last 2x services mentioned (308 & 309) could pose an ever greater risk due to both of them routes serving 3x close or nearby hospitals (RVI, Freeman, Rake Lane).

Let's hope if the police see any large queues at Billy Mill heading eastbound etc that they at least pull over and find out what passenger's intentions are.

Your monitoring the wrong bus routes here, if anyone is going to go out anywhere it won't be the beach that's too obvious. It's bus routes that go to places where, 'no-one goes there so it'll be fine,' spots if people are going to go anywhere.

Plessey Woods
Derwent Valley
Holywell Dene
NT Waggonways
Rising Sun
Northumberlandia

Places like those. Unless you've been living in a box or are very local, no-one would think of going to the beach especially in Tynemouth / Whitley / Roker or South Shields.

(04 Apr 2020, 10:09 am)Big O wrote [ -> ]First, you're on about staff and now you're talking about the Union. The union are not employed by any bus company, they are a separate body who are supposed to represent bus company staff. There are no staff members who care about how much the company makes before requesting a bonus. I certainly have never had that thought. These companies have a lot of money are there are other avenues that earn them revenue such as advertisements.

London isn't by large tap and go. There is no alternative, its just tap and go by the way. 

Routes up here are created for the shareholders, however, it may indirectly benefit the customer. The number of variations in routes, with some trips on duties being funded by Nexus will tell you that they aren't run for the customer, it's purely for profit. Tfl is a non-profit organisation who rely on a subsidy of sorts to keep them running. All the money they make is reinvested and benefits are widely seen. The network is easier to understand for any passenger, promotion is good, branding is good etc. It helps growth. 

Nexus is the only organisation that cares about the passenger, they are happy to fund a route for 6 hours that carries around 12 people, why? Because they get a subsidy from NECA.

Promotion for buses in London is next to non existent. When bus routes are changed, bus stops and spider maps are not updated. Compare that to the North East, where you’ve got companies selling their bus routes with posters and adverts. Bus use in London is falling, because the bus routes are so disorganised. There are times where I don’t even know which bus stop the bus stops at! There isn’t any branding in TfL land, it’s all red. And any attempts at branding has been shambolic.

The reason why you don’t see 38A and 38C in London is because TFL have the idea of “Take it or Leave it”. The reason why you see route variations in the North east is because they are catering to demand. If they run a route that is making a loss, then they can’t run it. And nobody was using it anyway.

(04 Apr 2020, 10:27 am)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]Promotion for buses in London is next to non existent. When bus routes are changed, bus stops and spider maps are not updated. Compare that to the North East, where you’ve got companies selling their bus routes with posters and adverts. Bus use in London is falling, because the bus routes are so disorganised. There are times where I don’t even know which bus stop the bus stops at! There isn’t any branding in TfL land, it’s all red. And any attempts at branding has been shambolic.

The reason why you don’t see 38A and 38C in London is because TFL have the idea of “Take it or Leave it”. The reason why you see route variations in the North east is because they are catering to demand. If they run a route that is making a loss, then they can’t run it. And nobody was using it anyway.

Sorry but this is just wrong in so many ways.

Firstly bus passenger usage drops are much worse up here than in London and have actually increased over the last 20 years whereas the rest of the country has decreased badly.
Secondly the bus network up here is horribly disjointed, I live just over the SE Northumberland border and if I want to travel to Chester Le Street, the only realistic ticket is an explorer ticket at £10.90. Whatever you want to say the Oyster system is an amazing system and the fact 20 years later most the country has nothing like it is a disgrace.
Thirdly there's spider maps which show you every bus - http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps...4-0120.pdf for example for Ealing Broadway. We have absolutely nothing like that, if I wanted to go to Chester Le Street I'd have to check the Arriva site, then check the GNE site, then maybe check the Metro to see if that's quicker then work it all out what connects here and where or rely on Google Maps. Not to mention bus timetables at bus stops around here are wrong, if they exist at all. Not to mention the TFL route checker which gives you ideal routes to use to get places and the intergrated ticketing with the tube, DLR, National Rail and overground
Fourthly, 'There isn’t any branding in TfL land, it’s all red. And any attempts at branding has been shambolic.' That's a good thing, buses are a public service it's not about who runs, most people don't give a toss.
Finally, to seriously suggest we have a better network than London you must either never use buses up here or live 2 metres from Gateshead or Newcastle as no way in any sense is that true and I think Arriva NE, GNE, or Stagecoach thereselves would agree there but that's due to the amount of subsidies that TFL pump in which we will never get and shouldn't neither.

I think the pop card was meant to be a bit like an
Oyster card but the bus companies thought that gave Nexus to much power. The is the smartzone but that's only in one town or city

(04 Apr 2020, 10:27 am)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]Promotion for buses in London is next to non existent. When bus routes are changed, bus stops and spider maps are not updated. Compare that to the North East, where you’ve got companies selling their bus routes with posters and adverts. Bus use in London is falling, because the bus routes are so disorganised. There are times where I don’t even know which bus stop the bus stops at! There isn’t any branding in TfL land, it’s all red. And any attempts at branding has been shambolic.

The reason why you don’t see 38A and 38C in London is because TFL have the idea of “Take it or Leave it”. The reason why you see route variations in the North east is because they are catering to demand. If they run a route that is making a loss, then they can’t run it. And nobody was using it anyway.

With all due respect what you're saying in regards to London bus use is garbage. Bus use in the North East is falling. Bus use in London has declined recently but there is a surge in Overground use which is also subcontracted from Tfl. The London Overground now runs a frequent orbital service around London, replacing many routes in the process. It has alleviated pressure on the bus network and many routes have been altered to match the new demand. The customers have not gone away, they use a different mode of Tfl travel.

Would you like to elaborate on how the routes are disorganised?

We have an IBUS system which is very easy to understand, the Tfl website contains live updates on each route and stops along the way too. If you don't know what stop the bus is stopping at, then it's your fault. There are so many quick and easy methods to prevent this. When I talk about branding I'm talking about more than Stickers on the bus, its the brand of Tfl I'm talking about...Also not good to comment on what you don't know. Branding is being worked on by an external agency and from what I've seen it's simple and informative. The previous branding on some of the routes was horrible I won't argue that.

There isn't a take it or leave it policy, not sure how you picked that one up along the A1..8000 plus buses and 63-night routes isn't "take it or leave it". The reason you don't see and 38A and 38C in London is because it's confusing and the reason you don't have a 1 to Whitley Bay and a 1 to Cobalt that operate on the same stretch of road is that, again its confusing and a bit ridiculous. My wife was confused when we first moved up here and so was I and I come from a background on the buses...Whether you want to believe it or not, the network up here is not the best and won't be until things are addressed properly and not using the various smokescreen methods.

(04 Apr 2020, 11:41 am)Ds1197 wrote [ -> ]I think the pop card was meant to be a bit like an
Oyster card but the bus companies thought that gave Nexus to much power. The is the smartzone but that's only in one town or city

I think a big part of it was because each of the big 3, plus Nexus all applied for a slice of the funding to launch the smart cards. All 3 got a slice and all 3 introduced their own system. 
No joined up thinking at all.

If it was and a common sense approach had been taken, we could have had a system which was efficient, convenient and reliable like Oyster.

(04 Apr 2020, 7:17 am)Charles41 wrote [ -> ]Well the potential passengers could say they are all bus enthusiasts wanting to sample a rare and odd working.

If people use that as an excuse, they should be shot on the spot.

Should be indoors, and following the rules, not going out for rides because its a rare working

(04 Apr 2020, 2:49 pm)Big O wrote [ -> ]With all due respect what you're saying in regards to London bus use is garbage. Bus use in the North East is falling. Bus use in London has declined recently but there is a surge in Overground use which is also subcontracted from Tfl. The London Overground now runs a frequent orbital service around London, replacing many routes in the process. It has alleviated pressure on the bus network and many routes have been altered to match the new demand. The customers have not gone away, they use a different mode of Tfl travel.

Would you like to elaborate on how the routes are disorganised?

We have an IBUS system which is very easy to understand, the Tfl website contains live updates on each route and stops along the way too. If you don't know what stop the bus is stopping at, then it's your fault. There are so many quick and easy methods to prevent this. When I talk about branding I'm talking about more than Stickers on the bus, its the brand of Tfl I'm talking about...Also not good to comment on what you don't know. Branding is being worked on by an external agency and from what I've seen it's simple and informative. The previous branding on some of the routes was horrible I won't argue that.

There isn't a take it or leave it policy, not sure how you picked that one up along the A1..8000 plus buses and 63-night routes isn't "take it or leave it". The reason you don't see and 38A and 38C in London is because it's confusing and the reason you don't have a 1 to Whitley Bay and a 1 to Cobalt that operate on the same stretch of road is that, again its confusing and a bit ridiculous. My wife was confused when we first moved up here and so was I and I come from a background on the buses...Whether you want to believe it or not, the network up here is not the best and won't be until things are addressed properly and not using the various smokescreen methods.

You can’t say that travel up here is bad. The north east is a hell of a lot better in integrated transport, in that I mean Tyne and Wear, than other parts of the UK (except London). I think we can all agree that bus usage is declining across the UK. 

London is very different to the north east as they have less car ownership than up here. The customers here have “gone away” to cars and not any other transport. Go North East or Stagecoach aren’t TfL. If they’ve lost customers, they don’t get any revenue. TfL will still get the money from Tube, DLR, Overground etc. 

Although the buses might be integrated in terms of fares, Nexus have done a similar thing with the Pop Card and other schemes, but haven’t taken off as Oyster did. The bus stops are looked after by Nexus with updated timetables and info. There’s a nexus journey planner, all very similar to London.

In terms of being disorganised, read this blogpost https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2019/...place.html 
This is just one of many examples, with misleading bus stop information or routes that aren’t being advertised and left for the public to figure out where buses go. Roger French, a highly respected person in the bus industry, also shows how TfL have forgotten about their buses.  https://busandtrainuser.com/2019/05/29/c...bus-route/ There are countless examples similar to these. While you might think passengers should figure out where a bus goes, you’re not going to attract customers or get any money if you don’t advertise your bus service. Whether it’s branding,  press launching a bus route or making people aware about it, people aren’t going to use it if they don’t know about it.

TfL are heavily subsidised, and when brand new electric buses entered on their 212 and 444 routes, there wasn’t any promotion, they just slipped quietly (literally) into service, whereas companies such as Transdev and Go North East spent a lot of time advertising their new 1 buses and X lines buses respectively. 

London buses are run so differently to the rest of the UK, there is no way that there is going to anything similar in the North East without large subsidies. London doesn’t really promote the bus network and it doesn’t matter to TfL because they get subsidies and they can rely on revenue from other modes of Transport. The rest of the UK bus companies have to persuade customers to get on board and if the costs of running the service is rising, they will have to reduce the service or increase the prices. Why? Because everything is about money and we don’t get the money that London does.

China want to pay for all the damage they have done to this country bus company going bust nearly
Shops to ppl lost there jobs

(04 Apr 2020, 10:31 pm)Gonorth91 wrote [ -> ]China want to pay for all the damage they have done to this country bus company going bust nearly
Shops to ppl lost there jobs

Eh?

(04 Apr 2020, 10:13 pm)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]You can’t say that travel up here is bad. The north east is a hell of a lot better in integrated transport, in that I mean Tyne and Wear, than other parts of the UK (except London). I think we can all agree that bus usage is declining across the UK. 

London is very different to the north east as they have less car ownership than up here. The customers here have “gone away” to cars and not any other transport. Go North East or Stagecoach aren’t TfL. If they’ve lost customers, they don’t get any revenue. TfL will still get the money from Tube, DLR, Overground etc. 

Although the buses might be integrated in terms of fares, Nexus have done a similar thing with the Pop Card and other schemes, but haven’t taken off as Oyster did. The bus stops are looked after by Nexus with updated timetables and info. There’s a nexus journey planner, all very similar to London.

In terms of being disorganised, read this blogpost https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2019/...place.html 
This is just one of many examples, with misleading bus stop information or routes that aren’t being advertised and left for the public to figure out where buses go. Roger French, a highly respected person in the bus industry, also shows how TfL have forgotten about their buses.  https://busandtrainuser.com/2019/05/29/c...bus-route/ There are countless examples similar to these. While you might think passengers should figure out where a bus goes, you’re not going to attract customers or get any money if you don’t advertise your bus service. Whether it’s branding,  press launching a bus route or making people aware about it, people aren’t going to use it if they don’t know about it.

TfL are heavily subsidised, and when brand new electric buses entered on their 212 and 444 routes, there wasn’t any promotion, they just slipped quietly (literally) into service, whereas companies such as Transdev and Go North East spent a lot of time advertising their new 1 buses and X lines buses respectively. 

London buses are run so differently to the rest of the UK, there is no way that there is going to anything similar in the North East without large subsidies. London doesn’t really promote the bus network and it doesn’t matter to TfL because they get subsidies and they can rely on revenue from other modes of Transport. The rest of the UK bus companies have to persuade customers to get on board and if the costs of running the service is rising, they will have to reduce the service or increase the prices. Why? Because everything is about money and we don’t get the money that London does.

I'm not sure if you've just moved here or something but TFL is much better than Nexus (who are absolutely hopeless) and is who your comparing here not GNE or whatever but it's not better for example the following 5 things just as an example which show wrong stuff or is just difficult to find:

1. Find the emergency timetable for the 335, or in fact any timetable or publicity - this is a brand new bus route that's just started and replaced the 42 between Cobalt and North Shields.
2. Find the service update on the bus section of both TFL and Nexus under the bus section for Covid 19 and the emergency timetables only using the Nexus website.
3. Find an integrated ticket for using the W1 to the Metro, then the Metro, then the 21 to Low Fell from Gateshead.
4. Same as above but find the times for each of those using only the Nexus site.
5. Use the 'live' travel map to find the next time of the 142 at Hayes to Heathrow on TFL, then use the 'live' travel map from Whitley Bay for the next 308 to Newcastle.

I'm sorry but Nexus is the problem up here and always have been, they can't do anything right. It's no wonder the Pop card didn't work like anything else they do yet cities like Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham are all able to have systems that work and are mostly larger areas aswell. People blame DB for the metro mess but it's not particularly got any better and it was their choice to refurbish trains that we're finished. Not to mention the Pedestrian Tunnel that was delayed, Haymarket delayed, Central Station delayed, North Shields delayed, station refurbishments cut back big time - look at Howden, the francising system that they blew millions on then just abandoned it, seperate smartzones schemes and the network one which isn't done by them (which should be), project Orphous (or however you spell it) which again blew money and yet again we're looking at expanding the Metro no doubt blowing more money when nothing happens. Absolutely hopeless.

This is in comparison to Leeds, Manchester etc not London which has even bigger problems with the Crossrail fiasco basically going to bust TFL.

Not to mention the fact they can't give any of the bus companies any confidence when every other week they're talking about taking the bus routes over.

Your cant blame nexus for all tyne and wears bus problems problems. The bus companies don't help. I remember when NEXUS decided they couldn't afford the Q1/Q2 and the white knight of GNE came in to take over the route. I remember the signs and the poster saying GNE save this route - this is why NEXUS shouldn't run the buses like TFL does in London etc etc....... then what do GNE do, offer no service to gateshead after 730 from the QUAY side. In my view if the service were contracted out like London up her it would be a much better service but I guess we'll never know!!

(05 Apr 2020, 9:19 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]Your cant blame nexus for all tyne and wears  bus problems problems. The bus companies don't help. I remember when NEXUS decided they couldn't afford the Q1/Q2 and the white knight of GNE came in to take over the route. I remember the signs and the poster saying GNE save this route - this is why NEXUS shouldn't run the buses like TFL does in London etc etc....... then what do GNE do, offer no service to gateshead after 730 from the QUAY side. In my view if the service were contracted out like London up her it would be a much better service but I guess we'll never know!!

Ah dw I don't there's definitely more to it than them but they just don't help as they only ever care about the Metro and anything else is just second thought. The fact they're looking at expanding the Metro again now when the current system doesn't work just sums them up. Anyone else would be focused on getting the current system working.

Agreed I think the contracted would work better but only if it wasn't done by the current Nexus as I could imagine them messing it up by pushing the Metro too much and not finally getting rid of some of their useless contracted services like the K1 and W1/2/3 which should be ideally with other services.

(04 Apr 2020, 10:13 pm)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]You can’t say that travel up here is bad. The north east is a hell of a lot better in integrated transport, in that I mean Tyne and Wear, than other parts of the UK (except London). I think we can all agree that bus usage is declining across the UK. 

London is very different to the north east as they have less car ownership than up here. The customers here have “gone away” to cars and not any other transport. Go North East or Stagecoach aren’t TfL. If they’ve lost customers, they don’t get any revenue. TfL will still get the money from Tube, DLR, Overground etc. 

Although the buses might be integrated in terms of fares, Nexus have done a similar thing with the Pop Card and other schemes, but haven’t taken off as Oyster did. The bus stops are looked after by Nexus with updated timetables and info. There’s a nexus journey planner, all very similar to London.

In terms of being disorganised, read this blogpost https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2019/...place.html 
This is just one of many examples, with misleading bus stop information or routes that aren’t being advertised and left for the public to figure out where buses go. Roger French, a highly respected person in the bus industry, also shows how TfL have forgotten about their buses.  https://busandtrainuser.com/2019/05/29/c...bus-route/ There are countless examples similar to these. While you might think passengers should figure out where a bus goes, you’re not going to attract customers or get any money if you don’t advertise your bus service. Whether it’s branding,  press launching a bus route or making people aware about it, people aren’t going to use it if they don’t know about it.

TfL are heavily subsidised, and when brand new electric buses entered on their 212 and 444 routes, there wasn’t any promotion, they just slipped quietly (literally) into service, whereas companies such as Transdev and Go North East spent a lot of time advertising their new 1 buses and X lines buses respectively. 

London buses are run so differently to the rest of the UK, there is no way that there is going to anything similar in the North East without large subsidies. London doesn’t really promote the bus network and it doesn’t matter to TfL because they get subsidies and they can rely on revenue from other modes of Transport. The rest of the UK bus companies have to persuade customers to get on board and if the costs of running the service is rising, they will have to reduce the service or increase the prices. Why? Because everything is about money and we don’t get the money that London does.

That picture of the 125 is down to Metroline, there was a shortage of blind sets being produced by Mckenna so they could not get them in time for the extension. The issue is now rectified along with the timetable information. 

I don't see why they have to promote buses changing due to a contract with regards to the 212 and 444. I think you'll find that when the electrics were first introduced in London in 2016, there was a heavy promotion, but why still promote it four years and 300 plus buses later? We did the same thing with Hybrids. They had a special uniform livery until that was done away with a few years back as nearly half of London's double-deck buses are now Hybrid. Everything loses its wow factor after a while. My thing is why try to jazz up something that is never going to be jazzy. A bus is a bus. It doesn't need to be sparkly to attract passengers. It just needs a decent level of promotion, service levels and reliability.

I was sat behind one of the new E400 MMCs that Hownsgill Have and the sign on the back read, as posh as your car and I thought but it's not. 

With the North East, the potential is there to have a bustling network but operators will only work with one another so much, and an officiating body I think could do the network some justice. 

London only gets the money it does because it can be justified in most cases. The Underground is fantastic, the fact it is so frequent makes you want to use it. I can't tell you how many times I've waited over 10 minutes for a Metro in the peaks. I know things are going to improve with the new Metro Trains and timetable but I never use Metro because of how unreliable and infrequent I found it when I first moved...I can't imagine how many other people there are like me.

Metro asked the government for money to buy new trains for years it wasn't agreed till last year

(04 Apr 2020, 10:31 pm)Gonorth91 wrote [ -> ]China want to pay for all the damage they have done to this country bus company going bust nearly
Shops to ppl lost there jobs

Can anyone translate?

(05 Apr 2020, 7:00 pm)gordondack wrote [ -> ]Can anyone translate?

I think staying the word 'China' in Donald Trump's voice will suffice

I wonder if more buses will be going into hibernation, as from my calculations the PVR has dropped by another 11 buses

4/X20, 5, 11, 19, 309/310, X1 - all minus 1
81-86 - minus 2
Hexham services - minus 3

I would expect the remaining NatEx coaches to be put into reserve with NatEx stopping all services as of last night.