(04 Jan 2014, 2:24 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]Andreos has made some good points regarding the 20 however as I've said above Dan you just seem to think its your opinion or the wrong opinion. Why does andreos have to think of a better argument and you don't? The 20 loadings aren't that unstable, every service can have low journeys at some points.
Clearly the 35 is a lot more unstable than GNE think if Andreos has just seen one with 0 passengers!
Have to say 5210 on the 35 was full heading to Shields like...
I don't have to come up with a better argument because I have no view on the matter - Andreos does.
I'm going by what I've been told, and personal observations of both services. My arguments have been shunned, so there you go. I have agreed with some of his points, and responded to the ones I disagree with to receive the same comments as before.
(04 Jan 2014, 2:27 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Clearly the 35 is a lot more unstable than GNE think if Andreos has just seen one with 0 passengers!
Have to say 5210 on the 35 was full heading to Shields like...
I don't have to come up with a better argument because I have no view on the matter - Andreos does.
I'm going by what I've been told, and personal observations of both services. My arguments have been shunned, so there you go. I have agreed with some of his points, and responded to the ones I disagree with to receive the same comments as before.
As I pointed out, if you ask the same questions over and over - then you are likely to get the same answers.
Look at what you have asked and look at my answers. There are only so many answers to the same questions.
Not sure your opinions have been shunned either...
It seems others have been, but that's something else.
The fact is, we all have different opinions be it based on experiences or whatever else - some correct, some wrong.
Bus operators make decisions which are wrong or open to debate - Omnicities on the 21, Versas on the 58, Vykings on the 21, the ever adapting 1/24, frequencies of the 39, buzzfare zones... The list is endless.
If we aren't allowed to voice that opinion (or the opinion which is different to yours) and end up with little sly digs being thrown at us, then we all may as well leave you to it and rename the forum the 'Dan show'.
Some of us are old enough to be your Dad man. We aint kids chucking around arguments in the school playground.
Let's just agree to disagree and move on - for the sake of the forum.
(04 Jan 2014, 12:18 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]The 35 isn't consistent either! I've been on a 35 with two pensioners, 2 90p fares and two fare paying passengers (one been myself) from Board Inn-Hetton Interchange. I've also been a 35C from Shields to Sunderland that only had about 12 passengers on a sunny Sunday daytime at 3pm.
Overall I'd have thought the 20 would have better loadings than the 35 for the number of vehicles involved, as the 20 is a two hour round trip and all of the route could be busy, whereas the 35 is a three hour plus round trip and the outer bits past Houghton likely to be much less well used. If you compare Houghton - Shields with Durham - Sunderland there probably won't be much difference, but I'd have thought that overall average loadings per vehicle used will be better on the 20.
(04 Jan 2014, 2:52 pm)andreos1 wrote [ -> ]As I pointed out, if you ask the same questions over and over - then you are likely to get the same answers.
Look at what you have asked and look at my answers. There are only so many answers to the same questions.
Not sure your opinions have been shunned either...
It seems others have been, but that's something else.
The fact is, we all have different opinions be it based on experiences or whatever else - some correct, some wrong.
Bus operators make decisions which are wrong or open to debate - Omnicities on the 21, Versas on the 58, Vykings on the 21, the ever adapting 1/24, frequencies of the 39, buzzfare zones... The list is endless.
If we aren't allowed to voice that opinion (or the opinion which is different to yours) and end up with little sly digs being thrown at us, then we all may as well leave you to it and rename the forum the 'Dan show'.
Some of us are old enough to be your Dad man. We aint kids chucking around arguments in the school playground.
Let's just agree to disagree and move on - for the sake of the forum.
As long as you expect the same in return! At no point have I had a view, but I have asked questions which favour the decision of Go North East as it should be the right one.
Some members of this forum consistently disagree with the decisions made by bus operators and I just wonder if they realise all the work which goes on behind the scenes! It's at the point where you can accurately predict the members who will disagree with what's being said.
Oh how I love the age debate! Why is it older enthusiasts feel the need to being in the age of another enthusiast if they are younger? A lot of older enthusiasts seem to think their age immediately entitles them to respect, and each and every time they mention the age of someone else in a debate I lose even more respect for them. Hmm...
(04 Jan 2014, 3:04 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]As long as you expect the same in return! At no point have I had a view, but I have asked questions which favour the decision of Go North East as it should be the right one.
Some members of this forum consistently disagree with the decisions made by bus operators and I just wonder if they realise all the work which goes on behind the scenes! It's at the point where you can accurately predict the members who will disagree with what's being said.
Oh how I love the age debate! Why is it older enthusiasts feel the need to being in the age of another enthusiast if they are younger? A lot of older enthusiasts seem to think their age immediately entitles them to respect, and each and every time they mention the age of someone else in a debate I lose even more respect for them. Hmm...
I don't have any issue with younger or older enthusiasts.
Never have done and never will.
When someone chucks around little digs and assumes they know it all - dissmissing everyone elses views and opinions whether those views are from drivers, bus company employees, ex bus company employees, younger enthusiasts or older ones - then maybe that is where some people start having issues.
Who knows?
As I suggested, time to move on?
(04 Jan 2014, 3:12 pm)andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I don't have any issue with younger or older enthusiasts.
Never have done and never will.
When someone chucks around little digs and assumes they know it all - dissmissing everyone elses views and opinions whether those views are from drivers, bus company employees, ex bus company employees, younger enthusiasts or older ones - then maybe that is where some people start having issues.
Who knows?
As I suggested, time to move on?
That's good to hear. Suggest you don't bring age into the debate in future, otherwise someone could suggest otherwise.
Contrary to what you and CF101 think (and possibly a few others), I certainly don't think I know it all... but carry on thinking that if you wish.
Yes, good idea.
(04 Jan 2014, 3:04 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]As long as you expect the same in return! At no point have I had a view, but I have asked questions which favour the decision of Go North East as it should be the right one.
Some members of this forum consistently disagree with the decisions made by bus operators and I just wonder if they realise all the work which goes on behind the scenes! It's at the point where you can accurately predict the members who will disagree with what's being said.
Oh how I love the age debate! Why is it older enthusiasts feel the need to being in the age of another enthusiast if they are younger? A lot of older enthusiasts seem to think their age immediately entitles them to respect, and each and every time they mention the age of someone else in a debate I lose even more respect for them. Hmm...
No one has ever mentioned your age in this forum before, to my knowledge however it comes to a point when your sometimes belittling and 'right opinion no matter what' become tired for many members of the forum. You've got respect your elders, however, no one is saying debate is wrong it just to me anyways it feels like its dans opinion or the wrong opinion, you often patronise people when they ask questions etc.
People don't disagree with bus operators just to hate on Go North East. I'm sick of some of the certain members including yourself alluding to everyone 'hating on GNE', people discuss and debate all areas of the buses, sometimes this involves questioning bus operators decisions but I question why Cadbury has withdrawn a chocolate bar the same way I question why Go North East has cut back the X3.
(04 Jan 2014, 3:16 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]No one has ever mentioned your age in this forum before, to my knowledge however it comes to a point when your sometimes belittling and 'right opinion no matter what' become tired for many members of the forum. You've got respect your elders, however, no one is saying debate is wrong it just to me anyways it feels like its dans opinion or the wrong opinion, you often patronise people when they ask questions etc.
People don't disagree with bus operators just to hate on Go North East. I'm sick of some of the certain members including yourself alluding to everyone 'hating on GNE', people discuss and debate all areas of the buses, sometimes this involves questioning bus operators decisions but I question why Cadbury has withdrawn a chocolate bar the same way I question why Go North East has cut back the X3.
Think you need some specs then, mate.
'Some of us are old enough to be your dad' -Andreos1.
I've heard the same about other members, but you don't see me or them saying that though, do you?!
(04 Jan 2014, 3:17 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Think you need some specs then, mate.
'Some of us are old enough to be your dad' -Andreos1.
I've heard the same about other members, but you don't see me or them saying that though, do you?!
Yeah I meant apart from that one comment, where else has it been mentioned? If you don't rub people up the wrong way it wouldn't have been mentioned by Andreos.
(04 Jan 2014, 3:33 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]Yeah I meant apart from that one comment, where else has it been mentioned? If you don't rub people up the wrong way it wouldn't have been mentioned by Andreos.
I've previously made posts about a select few people who have said it in the past.
People should have the common sense to not say things which could be deemed offensive. Contrasting views and debates shouldn't offend anyone - comments like that could.
(04 Jan 2014, 3:39 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I've previously made posts about a select few people who have said it in the past.
People should have the common sense to not say things which could be deemed offensive. Contrasting views and debates shouldn't offend anyone - comments like that could.
A comment on age relating to the arguments in the playground and your sly digs to me - pot, kettle, black?
It's ok, I didn't take offence with those.
Comments like that could offend someone.
I certainly wouldn't have brought up the age/playground thing if you hadn't littered your response with those casual digs about the debate tiring you out, being boring etc.
It certainly wasn't intended to cause offence.
We're both grown adults aren't we?
Anyway, thought we had moved on?
The Laser carries far more passengers than the Prince Bishops. The Prince Bishop services may appear to carry full loads, but like the West Durham Swift services, it isn't a particularly strong service.
Just a suggestion for the 20/20A, As some by the looks of don't think it's a Justifiable Investment for Geminis. Why not Split the PVR and have 6 Geminis and 6 Pulsar 2's Operating the Service, with a Further 2 Red Spares making the PVR 14 rather than 12.
Then you have from say Sunderland
02 - Gemini
12 - Pulsar 2
22 - Gemini
32 - Pulsar 2
42 - Gemini
52 - Pulsar 2
So in this Scenario the 20 at 12/32/52 Would use Pulsar 2's and the 20A at 02/22/42 would use Geminis, Then following Hours Departures would be switched so that the 20 uses Geminis and 20A uses Pulsars, Either way both Services would use 3 Geminis and 3 Pulsars, Which would provide great flexibility on the Service.
(04 Jan 2014, 5:29 pm)Adam Malarkey wrote [ -> ]Just a suggestion for the 20/20A, As some by the looks of don't think it's a Justifiable Investment for Geminis. Why not Split the PVR and have 6 Geminis and 6 Pulsar 2's Operating the Service, with a Further 2 Red Spares making the PVR 14 rather than 12.
Then you have from say Sunderland
02 - Gemini
12 - Pulsar 2
22 - Gemini
32 - Pulsar 2
42 - Gemini
52 - Pulsar 2
So in this Scenario the 20 at 12/32/52 Would use Pulsar 2's and the 20A at 02/22/42 would use Geminis, Then following Hours Departures would be switched so that the 20 uses Geminis and 20A uses Pulsars, Either way both Services would use 3 Geminis and 3 Pulsars, Which would provide great flexibility on the Service.
Split allocation should be a no-go from here on in, I think - so from that alone it's unlikely to happen.
If the Prince Bishops was to receive investment on top of the cascades which we believe to be planned for later this year, it would be a full double decked allocation and no doubt service changes would go through beforehand to try and help the Prince Bishops become more stable.
If they were more stable and every journey carried as many passengers as the 'canned sardines' scenarios, none of the previous discussion would have occurred and it would have been in line for investment, rather than a re-brand or cascades. If every, or even the majority, of journeys had that level of passenger numbers, it would undoubtedly beat the "Laser" hands down.
Thanks for the confirmation on the passenger numbers, Rob.
(04 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm)Rob wrote [ -> ]The Laser carries far more passengers than the Prince Bishops. The Prince Bishop services may appear to carry full loads, but like the West Durham Swift services, it isn't a particularly strong service.
I am surprised by that. also would like to know about how you can much such a statement, what figures have you used? Over what period etc. I can't believe the bishops aren't making enough money to warrant investment but there we go.
(04 Jan 2014, 6:52 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]I am surprised by that. also would like to know about how you can much such a statement, what figures have you used? Over what period etc. I can't believe the bishops aren't making enough money to warrant investment but there we go.
Figures are produced daily.
I'm guessing Rob may have gone for the better option of looking at last month's overall loadings though - or even better, the loadings for the past three months. I suspect all of the results will be in favour of the "Laser" carrying more passengers than the "Prince Bishops" though, for Rob's post to be so definite.
(04 Jan 2014, 6:52 pm)CatsFast101 wrote [ -> ]I am surprised by that. also would like to know about how you can much such a statement, what figures have you used? Over what period etc. I can't believe the bishops aren't making enough money to warrant investment but there we go.
If you look at what we were both saying about the 20's and 35's, you can see why the 35's are making more money.
Whilst a 20 may attract a full load maybe twice on a journey, it doesn't go through the estates like the 35 does.
Say the 35 gets a decent load between Low Moorsley and The Burn Inn.
The majority will get off at Houghton, depending on where they are going.
It will get locals travelling to Burnside and pick up passengers heading to Sunderland from Burnside, Newbottle, the Herringtons and Silksworth - starting again at Park Lane towards Shields.
The 20 will pick up a decent load at Durham, gradually empty towards Houghton, but pick up a few from East Rainton onwards and be close to full by the time it leaves Houghton (inc passengers off the 35)- but, not making many more stops by the time it gets to Park Lane.
Patterns are reversed on the way back.
So whilst the 20s are making money, carrying decent numbers and get full, there aren't as many people getting on and off as there are the 35's.
There isn't the same turnover of passengers if that makes sense.
The 20 is obviously viable, otherwise we would have seen changes by now.
(04 Jan 2014, 7:00 pm)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]Passenger numbers are looked at very frequently. We receive ETM data the following day as when the vehicles go back to the depot they download all of the data. Any analysis that is required can be done over any given period of time required (day, weeks, months) but of course analysis for things like new investment would not be done based on 1 day's numbers.
I understand you couldn't give out actual data, and I wouldn't ask for it, but can I ask whether loadings can accurately be accounted for now?
The reason I ask is that previously, with the old ETMs, I understand that only the the boardings could be accounted for - by either a ticket purchase or swipe card validation. Any alightments weren't actually recorded, so anyone using a ticket other than a single, return or get around multi-trip wasn't accounted for in this respect?
(04 Jan 2014, 7:10 pm)andreos1 wrote [ -> ]So whilst the 20s are carrying decent numbers and get full, there aren't as many people getting on and off as there are the 35's.
There isn't the same turnover of passengers if that makes sense.
Precisely this, yes.
There is a lot of competition in the area as you've mentioned, but if Go North East's fares are far superior to the competition, then you can understand why customers do travel on the "Laser" as opposed to a different service operated by Stagecoach.
I still stand by what I said earlier...
If a service warrants investment - no matter how big or small the competition in the area is, no matter how big or small the PVR is - it will receive it. Now more than ever before, with investment of so many vehicles planned each year.
Some journeys will have very high passenger numbers on the "Prince Bishops", as accounted for by anecdotes of 'canned sardines', but others will run very lightly. You really need a service to be stable before investing in it, and this is achieved by 'minor service changes', as we've all grown to know so well. Certain runs can't just be axed though, as from what I've seen, there is no set passenger rate on each run or indeed each day.
(04 Jan 2014, 7:14 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Precisely this, yes.
There is a lot of competition in the area as you've mentioned, but if Go North East's fares are far superior to the competition, then you can understand why customers do travel on the "Laser" as opposed to a different service operated by Stagecoach.
I still stand by what I said earlier...
If a service warrants investment - no matter how big or small the competition in the area is, no matter how big or small the PVR is - it will receive it. Now more than ever before, with investment of so many vehicles planned each year.
Some journeys will have very high passenger numbers on the "Prince Bishops", as accounted for by anecdotes of 'canned sardines', but others will run very lightly. You really need a service to be stable before investing in it, and this is achieved by 'minor service changes', as we've all grown to know so well. Certain runs can't just be axed though, as from what I've seen, there is no set passenger rate on each run and on each day.
Aren't the Sunderland GNE fares £1.35 or something, and Stagecoach are £1.55?