North East Buses

(15 Nov 2015, 8:58 am)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]GNE have a pretty well established set of Boxing Day services, whereas Arriva have never done it.

I therefore suspect that Arriva would have much more rejection from drivers and engineering staff internally due to the historic nature of no service on these days, that they wouldn't be able to cover the service provision if they planned to. That lack of definitive heads to cover is probably the main reason why it doesn't happen.

That said, a decent pay rate can tempt pretty much anyone, but you wouldn't open a garage to run just one route (as that initial overhead cost of engineers and supervisors would all be loaded onto that single service along with drivers), you would want to run as much as you can to make it all worthwhile (just like GNE do when they run more routes from one depot for example) - then we come back around to the beginning of this post...

I suspect if it ever happens, it would be in the Northumbria end of the region, given demand already expects a service there. Darlington will never open just to run Service 7. It would be at a loss by lunchtime by the time overheads and background staff are taken into account.

I'd argue that tradition has little place in business, nowadays. Just because something has been done for the last 20 years, doesn't mean that it should continue being done like that, for the next 20. 

I appreciate that there'll be staff there, who are not contractually required to work on a boxing day, but I'd be surprised if that were still the case for new starters. As you say though. a decent rate of pay can tempt pretty much anyone. I know of a number private sector businesses, where that their staff aren't required to work bank holidays, but they appreciate that their customers want to use them on a bank holiday. They all tend to manage staffing through a volunteers basis, and they always get the volunteers they need. Simply because they offer an incentive on top of the usual pay rate.

Arriva could easily run these services on boxing day from their Blyth Depot between 9am and 7pm:

- 306 every 30 minutes.
- 308 every 30 minutes.
(PVR of 306/308 = 8)
- Sunday timetable as used every Sunday and Bank Holiday would in force on these services
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
- X10 / X11 up to every 30 minutes serving their retrospective routes from Blyth to Cramlington then same route as 43 from there to Newcastle.
- X14 every 60 minutes between Morpeth and Newcastle.
- X21 every 60 minutes serving same route between Newbiggin and Red Lion then same route as X22 from there to Newcastle.
- 35 every 60 minutes between Newbiggin and Morpeth.
(PVR of X10/X11/X14/X21/35 = 9)
- Sunday timetable would be in force for all of the above services with minor adjustments.

This is the way that the above board would work operating anti-clockwise via Ashington and Newbiggin:
- 00:00 Blyth (X11)
- 01:00 Newcastle (X11) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks
- 01:04 Newcastle (X21)
- 02:12 Newbiggin (X21) - Note that layover at Ashington would only be 1 minute
- 02:14 Newbiggin (35)
- 02:50 Morpeth (35) - Note that layover at Ashington would not exist
- 02:53 Morpeth (X14)
- 03:26 Newcastle (X14)
- 03:30 Newcastle (X10)
- 04:28 Blyth (X10) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks

And anti-clockwise via Newbiggin and Ashington:
- 04:31 Blyth (X10)
- 05:29 Newcastle (X10) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks
- 05:33 Newcastle (X14)
- 06:06 Morpeth (X14)
- 06:08 Morpeth (35)
- 06:43 Newbiggin (35) - Note that layover at Ashington would not exist
- 06:45 Newbiggin (X21)
- 07:53 Newcastle (X21) - Note that layover at Ashington would only be 1 minute
- 07:57 Newcastle (X11)
- 08:57 Blyth (X11) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks

Do note that although times could be tight given that the Toon are playing Everton and that a VDL DB300 would have to endure a full bus on the X10/X11/X21 and perhaps the X14 as well as coping with Whorral Bank, the times after 2pm could be adjusted by a few minutes later to accommodate for the footy. Also, Arriva could allow through fares to be purchased on the 35 / X14 meaning that from Newbiggin and Ashington, passengers would have a bus approximately every 30 minutes from those points to and from Newcastle.

(15 Nov 2015, 5:01 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote [ -> ]Arriva could easily run these services on boxing day from their Blyth Depot between 9am and 7pm:

- 306 every 30 minutes.
- 308 every 30 minutes.
(PVR of 306/308 = 8)
- Sunday timetable as used every Sunday and Bank Holiday would in force on these services
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
- X10 / X11 up to every 30 minutes serving their retrospective routes from Blyth to Cramlington then same route as 43 from there to Newcastle.
- X14 every 60 minutes between Morpeth and Newcastle.
- X21 every 60 minutes serving same route between Newbiggin and Red Lion then same route as X22 from there to Newcastle.
- 35 every 60 minutes between Newbiggin and Morpeth.
(PVR of X10/X11/X14/X21/35 = 9)
- Sunday timetable would be in force for all of the above services with minor adjustments.

This is the way that the above board would work operating anti-clockwise via Ashington and Newbiggin:
- 00:00 Blyth (X11)
- 01:00 Newcastle (X11) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks
- 01:04 Newcastle (X21)
- 02:12 Newbiggin (X21) - Note that layover at Ashington would only be 1 minute
- 02:14 Newbiggin (35)
- 02:50 Morpeth (35) - Note that layover at Ashington would not exist
- 02:53 Morpeth (X14)
- 03:26 Newcastle (X14)
- 03:30 Newcastle (X10)
- 04:28 Blyth (X10) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks

And anti-clockwise via Newbiggin and Ashington:
- 04:31 Blyth (X10)
- 05:29 Newcastle (X10) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks
- 05:33 Newcastle (X14)
- 06:06 Morpeth (X14)
- 06:08 Morpeth (35)
- 06:43 Newbiggin (35) - Note that layover at Ashington would not exist
- 06:45 Newbiggin (X21)
- 07:53 Newcastle (X21) - Note that layover at Ashington would only be 1 minute
- 07:57 Newcastle (X11)
- 08:57 Blyth (X11) - including 1 minute layover at Manor Walks

Do note that although times could be tight given that the Toon are playing Everton and that a VDL DB300 would have to endure a full bus on the X10/X11/X21 and perhaps the X14 as well as coping with Whorral Bank, the times after 2pm could be adjusted by a few minutes later to accommodate for the footy. Also, Arriva could allow through fares to be purchased on the 35 / X14 meaning that from Newbiggin and Ashington, passengers would have a bus approximately every 30 minutes from those points to and from Newcastle.

As an alternative, you open Ashington and Blyth, and operate the following:

Blyth:
X10/11 on a Sunday service. Last journey 19:40 X10 from Newcastle.
1 on a two hourly Sunday service. 
2 on a two hourly Sunday service, operating current evening/Sunday route. Last journey 18:27 from Morpeth.

Ashington:
X21/22 on a Sunday service, withdrawing from 19:00. Last journey 19:45 X21 from Newcastle to Ashington.
35 on a Sunday service, carrying on until around 21:00. (Delay 20:45 departure from Morpeth until X18 arrives, and passengers transfer if need be.)
X18 on a Sunday service (between Newcastle and Alnwick only), last journey 20:13 from Newcastle.

Keep one driver and bus back at each depot from services withdrawn at around 7, in case duplicates of the last buses are needed.

(15 Nov 2015, 6:47 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]As an alternative, you open Ashington and Blyth, and operate the following:

Blyth:
X10/11 on a Sunday service. Last journey 19:40 X10 from Newcastle.
1 on a two hourly Sunday service. 
2 on a two hourly Sunday service, operating current evening/Sunday route. Last journey 18:27 from Morpeth.

Ashington:
X21/22 on a Sunday service, withdrawing from 19:00. Last journey 19:45 X21 from Newcastle to Ashington.
35 on a Sunday service, carrying on until around 21:00. (Delay 20:45 departure from Morpeth until X18 arrives, and passengers transfer if need be.)
X18 on a Sunday service (between Newcastle and Alnwick only), last journey 20:13 from Newcastle.

Keep one driver and bus back at each depot from services withdrawn at around 7, in case duplicates of the last buses are needed.

Like the 1 and 2 idea but:

- The X10/X11 route that I mentioned would also incorporate the 43 route between Cramlington and Newcastle. They'd make an absolute fortune.

- Like the 1/2 idea but would it be viable to run a boxing day service on 2x locals?

- Although the X21 / X22 may well justify a Sunday service on Boxing Day, the section of the X21 between Ashington and Bedlington and the section of the X22 between Bedlington and Newcastle have always been the stronger of the 2 sections of both routes rather than Guide Post.

- The 35 would run a Sunday service with different timings interworking with the X21 and X14.

However, I must say that although a full service between Newcastle and Alnwick on the X18 may not be viable, would something like this work in conjunction with the X14 service that I suggested earlier? The PVR requirement would be an extra 2x vehicles but it could work. Would provide approximately 2x buses per hour between Morpeth and Newcastle and a bus every 2 hours between Amble and Morpeth:

                         X14       X18       X14       X18       X14        X18      X14        X18       X14        X18
Amble                           00:32                                            02:32                                            04:32
Morpeth          00:53    01:13    01:53    02:33    02:53    03:13    03:53    04:33    04:53     05:13
Newcastle        01:26    01:46    02:26    03:06    03:26    03:46    04:26    05:06    05:26     05:46
Newcastle        01:33    01:53    02:33    03:13    03:33    03:53    04:33    05:13    05:33     05:53
Morpeth          02:06    02:26    03:06    03:46    04:06    04:26    05:06    05:46    06:06     06:26
Amble                                                      04:27                                           06:27

P.S Would run standalone and not interwork with any other services. Also, the X18 would not serve Acklington Prison too due to the timings required to operate the 2 hourly service to Amble and a regular service to Morpeth in conjunction with the X14. Also, layover in Morpeth would be reduced from 4 minutes to 2 minutes.

Got to remember that whilst a normal Sunday service on Boxing Day would be great, costs also have to be kept to an absolute minimum and opening 2x depots would further increase this. If all bar the X18 were interworked, it would make sense to just open Blyth Depot and sending an ancillary vehicle to Morpeth for the X18 driver changeovers. And although Blyth may not have the driver numbers to operate on it's own, the opportunity could be there for Ashington and perhaps Jesmond drivers who want some extra £££

It's pointless designing timetables, because it's evident that the company aren't progressive enough, to even consider a Boxing Day service.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:06 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It's pointless designing timetables, because it's evident that the company aren't progressive enough, to even consider a Boxing Day service.

I think that they do, but who would volunteer? If Arriva offered a good rate for a Boxing Day service, they'd get enough drivers to do it on a voluntary basis particularly the younger lads and lasses who need the money. The routes I mentioned above would certainly make more than enough revenue to cover the costs particularly the X10 / X11 which would also incorporate the 43 and some of the 44/45 passengers too. Could you imagine how packed these would get particularly on matchday? Passengers would have to be turned down by the time the services hit Dudley and Seaton Burn or even Southfield Green if Arriva got 'very lucky'.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:06 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It's pointless designing timetables, because it's evident that the company aren't progressive enough, to even consider a Boxing Day service.

Has anyone emailed Arriva this year asking why? 

I did last year and was told it was because there was no Boxing Day football in Newcastle, not the case this year.

I will email them again tomorrow morning, when I have some more free time, because if they had an ounce of common sense, they'd know that they would make a small fortune, even after taking away the extra wages drivers would have to be paid.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:46 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Has anyone emailed Arriva this year asking why? 

I did last year and was told it was because there was no Boxing Day football in Newcastle, not the case this year.

I will email them again tomorrow morning, when I have some more free time, because if they had an ounce of common sense, they'd know that they would make a small fortune, even after taking away the extra wages drivers would have to be paid.

I'll email them tomorrow. No football is a washout of an excuse, because Sunderland were still playing. I'm sure their East Durham network carries as much folk to Sunderland, was the Northumbria network does to Newcastle.

You will just get fobbed off. The decision has been made now and the agreement has probably been agreed with the TU.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:58 pm)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]You will just get fobbed off.  The decision has been made now and the agreement has probably been agreed with the TU.

Aye, without a doubt! I'll feel better for having a rant about it though haha.

If Arriva fail to this year, which looks likely, would GNE do anything next year around Newcastle?

I imagine the potential for money making would be huge

(15 Nov 2015, 9:38 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]If Arriva fail to this year, which looks likely, would GNE do anything next year around Newcastle?

I imagine the potential for money making would be huge

Well, out of what I suggested, if they did something like my suggestions next year (I might e-mail them this week), it would work out like this:

- X10/X11 = VERY Big Money (particularly for the football)
- 308 = VERY Big Money
- 306 = Big Money
- X21 = Good Money
- 35 = OK Money but mainly acting as a feeder service for the X14.
- X14 = Goodish Money.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:04 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote [ -> ]Like the 1 and 2 idea but:

- The X10/X11 route that I mentioned would also incorporate the 43 route between Cramlington and Newcastle. They'd make an absolute fortune.

- Like the 1/2 idea but would it be viable to run a boxing day service on 2x locals?

- Although the X21 / X22 may well justify a Sunday service on Boxing Day, the section of the X21 between Ashington and Bedlington and the section of the X22 between Bedlington and Newcastle have always been the stronger of the 2 sections of both routes rather than Guide Post.

- The 35 would run a Sunday service with different timings interworking with the X21 and X14.

However, I must say that although a full service between Newcastle and Alnwick on the X18 may not be viable, would something like this work in conjunction with the X14 service that I suggested earlier? The PVR requirement would be an extra 2x vehicles but it could work. Would provide approximately 2x buses per hour between Morpeth and Newcastle and a bus every 2 hours between Amble and Morpeth:

                         X14       X18       X14       X18       X14        X18      X14        X18       X14        X18
Amble                           00:32                                            02:32                                            04:32
Morpeth          00:53    01:13    01:53    02:33    02:53    03:13    03:53    04:33    04:53     05:13
Newcastle        01:26    01:46    02:26    03:06    03:26    03:46    04:26    05:06    05:26     05:46
Newcastle        01:33    01:53    02:33    03:13    03:33    03:53    04:33    05:13    05:33     05:53
Morpeth          02:06    02:26    03:06    03:46    04:06    04:26    05:06    05:46    06:06     06:26
Amble                                                      04:27                                           06:27

P.S Would run standalone and not interwork with any other services. Also, the X18 would not serve Acklington Prison too due to the timings required to operate the 2 hourly service to Amble and a regular service to Morpeth in conjunction with the X14. Also, layover in Morpeth would be reduced from 4 minutes to 2 minutes.

Got to remember that whilst a normal Sunday service on Boxing Day would be great, costs also have to be kept to an absolute minimum and opening 2x depots would further increase this. If all bar the X18 were interworked, it would make sense to just open Blyth Depot and sending an ancillary vehicle to Morpeth for the X18 driver changeovers. And although Blyth may not have the driver numbers to operate on it's own, the opportunity could be there for Ashington and perhaps Jesmond drivers who want some extra £££

My 1&2 suggestions were so that people in different parts of SE Northumberland could get around to visit family etc. Also, those who may live on a 1 or 2 route may not live on one of the Newcastle routes, it would provide a link. 

If you didn't run both the X21 and X22, then I think running the 1 & 2 would be a necessity. I believe, however, that on this Boxing Day in particular, the X21/22 would make a shed load, I've been on X21's on a match day and they get pretty cramped, so couple that with Boxing Day sales...

I think Ashington, Blyth and Jesmond drivers would have to be used, they know their own routes inside out, where they can make up time, which, I imagine, is a pretty important thing on the suggested timetables.

(15 Nov 2015, 10:26 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]My 1&2 suggestions were so that people in different parts of SE Northumberland could get around to visit family etc. Also, those who may live on a 1 or 2 route may not live on one of the Newcastle routes, it would provide a link. 

If you didn't run both the X21 and X22, then I think running the 1 & 2 would be a necessity. I believe, however, that on this Boxing Day in particular, the X21/22 would make a shed load, I've been on X21's on a match day and they get pretty cramped, so couple that with Boxing Day sales...

I think Ashington, Blyth and Jesmond drivers would have to be used, they know their own routes inside out, where they can make up time, which, I imagine, is a pretty important thing on the suggested timetables.

Would be good to have the X22 but there'd be no combined frequency though as in order for the 35 and X14 to run, the X21 would to run via the Hartlands otherwise there won't be enough running time for the whole route.

Although it would be good for all three depots to be open, this would cost far too much and coupled by the fact that Blyth has suitable vehicles for all routes which would be covered on Boxing Day (well in terms of capacity), it would be a no brainer not to mention the extra revenue of the X10/X11 mirroring the 43 route between Cramlington and Newcastle despite the slightly longer journey time.

(15 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]The thing that has always puzzled me, is the line operators use about there 'being no demand' or operations being 'based on previous Boxing Days'.
I wonder how tv stations decided on 24/7 broadcasting? How new and innovative products are launched?

Someone obviously took a punt and decided they were worth a gamble, even after market research.

It isn't beyond the whit of man, to maybe test the water with Boxing Day services. Rather than rely on guesstimates.
How any operator can identify lack of demand, without a comprehensive consultation is anyone's guess.

Despite living in T&W, I have never had a Boxing Day service - until last year.
Waiting with baited breath to see if last years offering was a success and it is repeated this year.
Hopefully they can be applauded for the second consecutive year and a precedent can be set, not only with that service - but other areas across the region.

Well said.

(15 Nov 2015, 8:06 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It's pointless designing timetables, because it's evident that the company aren't progressive enough, to even consider a Boxing Day service.

Exactly!

I seem to recall being told that in order to make it financially viable for us to run a Boxing Day service, taking into account the operating costs and significant wage supplements for working that day, every driver would have to cash in approx £500. Not going to happen...

(18 Nov 2015, 4:58 pm)RRA219X wrote [ -> ]I seem to recall being told that in order to make it financially viable for us to run a Boxing Day service, taking into account the operating costs and significant wage supplements for working that day, every driver would have to cash in approx £500. Not going to happen...

Yet the two other large operators in the region can provide a large commercial operation? Doesn't sound right to me...

I appreciate that every single service is not viable for Boxing Day, but even an hourly frequency on some of the top money routes, would be a whole lot better than nothing.

(18 Nov 2015, 4:58 pm)RRA219X wrote [ -> ]I seem to recall being told that in order to make it financially viable for us to run a Boxing Day service, taking into account the operating costs and significant wage supplements for working that day, every driver would have to cash in approx £500. Not going to happen...

Start with Sunday services and compute from there.

Fuel costs would be the same, it just needs the wage premiums to be added.

(18 Nov 2015, 7:23 pm)G-CPTN wrote [ -> ]Start with Sunday services and compute from there.

Fuel costs would be the same, it just needs the wage premiums to be added.

Problem with that is, I can't see some Sunday services turning a profit on that day, especially with a higher rate of pay for the drivers.