(03 Jun 2023, 9:04 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Aye it'll definitely be interesting, especially in Co. Durham which the 60/61/65 are all in with the reduction in English National Concessionary funding. The cuts with Arriva are pretty hard in some areas and the routes which are getting cuts there ie. the Darlington locals always seem stronger than the likes of the 61 and 65 on an evening and Sunderland. Heard there's similar due for Stagecoach aswell.
Some of the Consett routes could be seriously at risk aswell as they're never exactly the busiest routes especially at night, the likes of the 6 in particular which is constantly meddled with.
I'm usually quite critical but reducting the funds, regardless to there being less passengers or not, is just wreckless imo. The sad thing is whichever smart arse thought the small savings was clever is now dumped with the issue of subsidising some of them or leaving whole towns stranded in the case of Barnard Castle on a Sunday. Suppose in the case of Teesside they can just plowing money on the fantasy airport which ironically doesn't have a bus service now...
I would like to think most of GNE’s cuts have already been made, over several iterations of ‘getting fit for the future’.
If anything, GNE seem to be looking towards growth (North Tyneside) and re-building the network (gradual reinstatement of frequency on 8, 65, X6) at the moment.
The scale of the Arriva cuts seem to be similar to that of the scale of GNE’s previous cuts.
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(03 Jun 2023, 9:23 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I would like to think most of GNE’s cuts have already been made, over several iterations of ‘getting fit for the future’.
If anything, GNE seem to be looking towards growth (North Tyneside) and re-building the network (gradual reinstatement of frequency on 8, 65, X6) at the moment.
The scale of the Arriva cuts seem to be similar to that of the scale of GNE’s previous cuts.
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North Tyneside: will there be enough drivers to operate the extra bus services in September from Percy main when Arriva step down operating the 51 sequences etc… , I think before there was a lot of spare drivers at Percy main due to contract changes etc… and service 1 got extended to metrocentre to combat that problem the extra driver problems.
I wonder if the coaster 1 will get cut again to accommodate the drivers going on the new services in September
(03 Jun 2023, 9:23 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I would like to think most of GNE’s cuts have already been made, over several iterations of ‘getting fit for the future’.
If anything, GNE seem to be looking towards growth (North Tyneside) and re-building the network (gradual reinstatement of frequency on 8, 65, X6) at the moment.
The scale of the Arriva cuts seem to be similar to that of the scale of GNE’s previous cuts.
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What about all the frequency reductions? The main ones 10/10A/10B, 39/39A/39B, 57, X20, plus the other ones with smaller freq reductions,53/54, 60? Are they still temp?
Also what is the plan for the X20, will it ever go back to Durham/ Langley Park, a proper express is needed tbh, between Sunderland & Durham arguably is one of the busiest routes without a train line a proper express is needed.
(03 Jun 2023, 9:04 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Aye it'll definitely be interesting, especially in Co. Durham which the 60/61/65 are all in with the reduction in English National Concessionary funding. The cuts with Arriva are pretty hard in some areas and the routes which are getting cuts there ie. the Darlington locals always seem stronger than the likes of the 61 and 65 on an evening and Sunderland. Heard there's similar due for Stagecoach aswell.
Some of the Consett routes could be seriously at risk aswell as they're never exactly the busiest routes especially at night, the likes of the 6 in particular which is constantly meddled with.
I'm usually quite critical but reducting the funds, regardless to there being less passengers or not, is just wreckless imo. The sad thing is whichever smart arse thought the small savings was clever is now dumped with the issue of subsidising some of them or leaving whole towns stranded in the case of Barnard Castle on a Sunday. Suppose in the case of Teesside they can just plowing money on the fantasy airport which ironically doesn't have a bus service now...
Idk what you mean with the 60 was due to driver shortages/61 reduction was low passenger numbers, however the 61 are regularly rammed when the 22/23 went to hourly, and i assume that will be a similar situation, espeically if the 61 gets from Sunderland to Dalton Park and Vice Versa just before the 22/23 (whcih is what they should do tbh) by about 5 mins. And it might actually cause an increase in frequency as the link to Dalton park can be very busy.
Consett routes I agree bar the X45 they are very busy weekdays, however are very weak like all consett routes bar the 78 really on an evening.
(03 Jun 2023, 9:56 am)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]What about all the frequency reductions? The main ones 10/10A/10B, 39/39A/39B, 57, X20, plus the other ones with smaller freq reductions,53/54, 60? Are they still temp?
Also what is the plan for the X20, will it ever go back to Durham/ Langley Park, a proper express is needed tbh, between Sunderland & Durham arguably is one of the busiest routes without a train line a proper express is needed.
I’m not sure what else I can say other than what I said in my previous post. Go North East seem to be gradually re-building their network and reversing many of the frequency reductions which they said were temporary - the 65 in January, the 8 in May, and the X6 will follow in July.
They seem to be planning these enhancements by using existing resource much more efficiently - the 65 was PVR neutral (they already had 4 buses out in the peak), but saved a massive amount of wasteful resource by interworking with the 20 (which in turn removed remote driver reliefs); the 8 was PVR neutral (there was already one peak-only bus on the 8, and there was also two peak-only buses on the 4 and 28S which now run the 8 inter-peak, and driver reliefs now take place at The Galleries instead of Chester-le-Street due to a rota change); and it has been suggested that the X6 will be PVR neutral (by using the 807/877 school bus).
A much more careful and considered approach to network planning takes time, and it is no surprise therefore that each iteration of frequency enhancement has taken a little bit of time to mobilise.
If this approach can be taken towards other services, then I’m sure it will be at some point. Are there any other services with obvious inefficiencies? Service 39 surely has to be a contender - and isn’t the contract for the 39B to Washington due to expire from 22 July? I’d hazard a guess that with a revision to the timetable, you could reinstate the frequency of service 39 by removing the near 40-minute layover the service has at The Galleries, and by making use of the existing peak-only buses which operate the service.
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(03 Jun 2023, 10:25 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I’m not sure what else I can say other than what I said in my previous post. Go North East seem to be gradually re-building their network and reversing many of the frequency reductions which they said were temporary - the 65 in January, the 8 in May, and the X6 will follow in July.
They seem to be planning these enhancements by using existing resource much more efficiently - the 65 was PVR neutral (they already had 4 buses out in the peak), but saved a massive amount of wasteful resource by interworking with the 20 (which in turn removed remote driver reliefs); the 8 was PVR neutral (there was already one peak-only bus on the 8, and there was also two peak-only buses on the 4 and 28S which now run the 8 inter-peak, and driver reliefs now take place at The Galleries instead of Chester-le-Street due to a rota change); and it has been suggested that the X6 will be PVR neutral (by using the 807/877 school bus).
A much more careful and considered approach to network planning takes time, and it is no surprise therefore that each iteration of frequency enhancement has taken a little bit of time to mobilise.
If this approach can be taken towards other services, then I’m sure it will be at some point. Are there any other services with obvious inefficiencies? Service 39 surely has to be a contender - and isn’t the contract for the 39B to Washington due to expire from 22 July? I’d hazard a guess that with a revision to the timetable, you could reinstate the frequency of service 39 by removing the near 40-minute layover the service has at The Galleries, and by making use of the existing peak-only buses which operate the service.
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Speaking of the 39B, I wonder if that contract will be extended or not past a year, as when I've been on it has gotten quite high passenger numbers, and the peak services i agree.
57 needs to go to every 20 mins, X20 needs to return in a more express way. 20 Langley Park just doesn't seem right.
(03 Jun 2023, 9:23 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I would like to think most of GNE’s cuts have already been made, over several iterations of ‘getting fit for the future’.
If anything, GNE seem to be looking towards growth (North Tyneside) and re-building the network (gradual reinstatement of frequency on 8, 65, X6) at the moment.
The scale of the Arriva cuts seem to be similar to that of the scale of GNE’s previous cuts.
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Aye fair points, thought the issues with the ENCTS might have been an unexpected hit and made changes even further.
(03 Jun 2023, 11:16 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Aye fair points, thought the issues with the ENCTS might have been an unexpected hit and made changes even further.
That assumes all operators are in the same boat re ENCTS, and indeed that the picture Arriva has painted is actually representative of reality.
Might it be that local authorities are reducing payments to match the operators’ level of service and reduction in usage?
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(03 Jun 2023, 11:56 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]That assumes all operators are in the same boat re ENCTS, and indeed that the picture Arriva has painted is actually representative of reality.
Might it be that local authorities are reducing payments to match the operators’ level of service and reduction in usage?
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If I'm correct, it's reducing it to the 'correct value' due to lower number of passes used isn't it?
But even then, I'd argue it's probably a good spend keeping the rate up rather than a cheap fix. Long term it's just going to mean subsidised services from them so no real gain.
Obviously what Arriva would've done if they kept the rate up is unknown but it arguably can't be worse than what it is.
Now whether that should've been spent by central government, councils, the BSIP fund or what not is a political debate that could be had but buses should be treat as a public service rather than a business imo.
(03 Jun 2023, 12:08 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]If I'm correct, it's reducing it to the 'correct value' due to lower number of passes used isn't it?
But even then, I'd argue it's probably a good spend keeping the rate up rather than a cheap fix. Long term it's just going to mean subsidised services from them so no real gain.
Obviously what Arriva would've done if they kept the rate up is unknown but it arguably can't be worse than what it is.
Now whether that should've been spent by central government, councils, the BSIP fund or what not is a political debate that could be had but buses should be treat as a public service rather than a business imo.
Due to the lower number of passes used, and to reflect the reduction in service levels which have already taken place.
Arguably, it could end up being a vicious circle, if Durham County Council imposes a further reduction in ENCTS payments, due to the withdrawal of yet more routes.
From Durham CC’s perspective, why should they pay Arriva for all the ENCTS usage from Cockfield on service 6, when they are going to limit their number of journeys to just a few in each direction at peak times?
Likewise Nexus and Northumberland County Council - with the withdrawal of services 51 to 55, you would expect they would impose a reduction in ENCTS payments to Arriva, as they are no longer carrying the passengers.
The crux, I guess, of “fixed pot” deals, which cannot remain fixed if the network increases or decreases in size.
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so do each company get a set amount per year ? I though tey got reimburse per ticket the way ive seen some company prints tickets for invisible passengers
(03 Jun 2023, 1:12 pm)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]so do each company get a set amount per year ? I though tey got reimburse per ticket the way ive seen some company prints tickets for invisible passengers
Agreements for ENCTS reimbursement varies by local authority and operator.
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Possible suggestion to change 41 41a and integrate with 51 to sort out the "Wiltshire Drive Debate"
What about spinning the 41 and 41a on its head and completely changing the route.
On a map think of a letter P from Wallsend design with a few bumps
Wallsend up to Station Road 41 goes via Wiltshire Drive then up to Range along to Asda then a left at the roundabout onto great lime road but a right into Wesley Drive basically through the industrial estate placing bus stops as close as possible to create a Palmersville metro station link through the industrial estate and out the other side serve the stops at whitley Road but turn right back to the roundabout then left and a loop round the new estate from there the bus goes via Northumberland Park and down via Cobalt Middle engine lane round Hadrian Park loop then out along Battlehill Drive high farm then back round Wiltshire Drive back to Wallsend
41 goes one way round Asda Northumberland Park cobalt into hadrian Park and 41A does the opposite loop
Immediately this creates a lot of new links especially Shopping to Asda Northumberland Park shops linking Wallsend metro to Palmersville and Northumberland Park metro there is also creating a cobalt link. It could also be quicker to go by bus from Wallsend to Palmersville Metro then using the metro which will also benefit when metro has their issues
There is a 335 does part of the route however it ends very early around 6ish however most people finish work after 530 so this would create a evening and Sunday service too
The link to Newcastle from Wiltshire and benton to be lost HOWEVER a ticket can be purchased to be used to connect to a bus to Newcastle call it Coast Road plus ticket for an extra 50p you connect to a Cobalt and Coast route
Making a loop clockwise and anti clockwise
(03 Jun 2023, 1:32 pm)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]that makes sense. cheers
If there is an issue about ECNTS wouldn't it be beneficial to market to attract more ECNTS users to assist in funding the gap...
Market so the bus goes to Asda the Bingo the local community Centre Nitter Natter group The pub etc...
Even encouraging users to say pop to the pub for tea or a coffee all generates additional income and bums on seats and not carrying fresh air
If you have a cheeky marketing campaign you could also suggest that all buses are a "Warm Space" and run from early morning until last bus
(09 Jun 2023, 2:47 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote [ -> ]Possible suggestion to change 41 41a and integrate with 51 to sort out the "Wiltshire Drive Debate"
What about spinning the 41 and 41a on its head and completely changing the route.
On a map think of a letter P from Wallsend design with a few bumps
Wallsend up to Station Road 41 goes via Wiltshire Drive then up to Range along to Asda then a left at the roundabout onto great lime road but a right into Wesley Drive basically through the industrial estate placing bus stops as close as possible to create a Palmersville metro station link through the industrial estate and out the other side serve the stops at whitley Road but turn right back to the roundabout then left and a loop round the new estate from there the bus goes via Northumberland Park and down via Cobalt Middle engine lane round Hadrian Park loop then out along Battlehill Drive high farm then back round Wiltshire Drive back to Wallsend
41 goes one way round Asda Northumberland Park cobalt into hadrian Park and 41A does the opposite loop
Immediately this creates a lot of new links especially Shopping to Asda Northumberland Park shops linking Wallsend metro to Palmersville and Northumberland Park metro there is also creating a cobalt link. It could also be quicker to go by bus from Wallsend to Palmersville Metro then using the metro which will also benefit when metro has their issues
There is a 335 does part of the route however it ends very early around 6ish however most people finish work after 530 so this would create a evening and Sunday service too
The link to Newcastle from Wiltshire and benton to be lost HOWEVER a ticket can be purchased to be used to connect to a bus to Newcastle call it Coast Road plus ticket for an extra 50p you connect to a Cobalt and Coast route
Making a loop clockwise and anti clockwise
If there is an issue about ECNTS wouldn't it be beneficial to market to attract more ECNTS users to assist in funding the gap...
Market so the bus goes to Asda the Bingo the local community Centre Nitter Natter group The pub etc...
Even encouraging users to say pop to the pub for tea or a coffee all generates additional income and bums on seats and not carrying fresh air
If you have a cheeky marketing campaign you could also suggest that all buses are a "Warm Space" and run from early morning until last bus
The problem is it's ignoring the white elephant in the room and that's Whitley Bay to Holystone which isn't covered by any other services especially North Whitley Bay who want a route to Newcastle. Also no-one wants to go to Wallsend as there's nothing there, it's basically just the old 42 which failed miserably and is the 342 now (it used to serve Wiltshire Drive).
Wiltshire Drive is the most useless part of the 51 imo. The 6 buses from New York to Blyth is the biggest problem as it's complete overkill and most the time there's barely anyone on especially North of Whitley Bay - it's the same number of buses as the 21 which is one of the busiest corridors around.
If we ever get franchised services, hopefully we might see changes to make them actually more useful because there's no need for more than 4 buses max North of Whitley and even that's questionable.
(09 Jun 2023, 2:47 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote [ -> ]Possible suggestion to change 41 41a and integrate with 51 to sort out the "Wiltshire Drive Debate"
What about spinning the 41 and 41a on its head and completely changing the route.
On a map think of a letter P from Wallsend design with a few bumps
Wallsend up to Station Road 41 goes via Wiltshire Drive then up to Range along to Asda then a left at the roundabout onto great lime road but a right into Wesley Drive basically through the industrial estate placing bus stops as close as possible to create a Palmersville metro station link through the industrial estate and out the other side serve the stops at whitley Road but turn right back to the roundabout then left and a loop round the new estate from there the bus goes via Northumberland Park and down via Cobalt Middle engine lane round Hadrian Park loop then out along Battlehill Drive high farm then back round Wiltshire Drive back to Wallsend
41 goes one way round Asda Northumberland Park cobalt into hadrian Park and 41A does the opposite loop
Immediately this creates a lot of new links especially Shopping to Asda Northumberland Park shops linking Wallsend metro to Palmersville and Northumberland Park metro there is also creating a cobalt link. It could also be quicker to go by bus from Wallsend to Palmersville Metro then using the metro which will also benefit when metro has their issues
There is a 335 does part of the route however it ends very early around 6ish however most people finish work after 530 so this would create a evening and Sunday service too
The link to Newcastle from Wiltshire and benton to be lost HOWEVER a ticket can be purchased to be used to connect to a bus to Newcastle call it Coast Road plus ticket for an extra 50p you connect to a Cobalt and Coast route
Making a loop clockwise and anti clockwise
If there is an issue about ECNTS wouldn't it be beneficial to market to attract more ECNTS users to assist in funding the gap...
Market so the bus goes to Asda the Bingo the local community Centre Nitter Natter group The pub etc...
Even encouraging users to say pop to the pub for tea or a coffee all generates additional income and bums on seats and not carrying fresh air
If you have a cheeky marketing campaign you could also suggest that all buses are a "Warm Space" and run from early morning until last bus
No, a lot of these links exist already with the 41a and 51, people want a bus to Newcastle from East Benton and Wiltshire Drive. The new estates at East Benton and Fallow Park need a quick link to the the City centre. At the moment it takes about 20 minutes on the 51 to to Newcastle, a bus to Palmersville, Wallsend or Coast Road will add extra time and hassle.
(09 Jun 2023, 6:04 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]The problem is it's ignoring the white elephant in the room and that's Whitley Bay to Holystone which isn't covered by any other services especially North Whitley Bay who want a route to Newcastle. Also no-one wants to go to Wallsend as there's nothing there, it's basically just the old 42 which failed miserably and is the 342 now (it used to serve Wiltshire Drive).
Wiltshire Drive is the most useless part of the 51 imo. The 6 buses from New York to Blyth is the biggest problem as it's complete overkill and most the time there's barely anyone on especially North of Whitley Bay - it's the same number of buses as the 21 which is one of the busiest corridors around.
If we ever get franchised services, hopefully we might see changes to make them actually more useful because there's no need for more than 4 buses max North of Whitley and even that's questionable.
Another problem in my eyes is that GNE tried to get clever by merging several services into one and basically ballsed it up in the process , it never really revovered, then Covid screwed everything up, but as mentioned a few times, instead of axing, surely adapting would be a better course of action, bus networks should slways be seen as "working progress", not "oh that'll do"
(09 Jun 2023, 10:04 pm)V514DFT wrote [ -> ]Another problem in my eyes is that GNE tried to get clever by merging several services into one and basically ballsed it up in the process , it never really revovered, then Covid screwed everything up, but as mentioned a few times, instead of axing, surely adapting would be a better course of action, bus networks should slways be seen as "working progress", not "oh that'll do"
Yeah can't disagree tbh, it doesn't help since the 318/319 days, it feels like it changed routes considerably every other month. No use if you actually rely on the thing, for it not to be there next week, back the week after, then gone again after.
(09 Jun 2023, 6:04 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]The problem is it's ignoring the white elephant in the room and that's Whitley Bay to Holystone which isn't covered by any other services especially North Whitley Bay who want a route to Newcastle. Also no-one wants to go to Wallsend as there's nothing there, it's basically just the old 42 which failed miserably and is the 342 now (it used to serve Wiltshire Drive).
Wiltshire Drive is the most useless part of the 51 imo. The 6 buses from New York to Blyth is the biggest problem as it's complete overkill and most the time there's barely anyone on especially North of Whitley Bay - it's the same number of buses as the 21 which is one of the busiest corridors around.
If we ever get franchised services, hopefully we might see changes to make them actually more useful because there's no need for more than 4 buses max North of Whitley and even that's questionable.
Or.....an option to fully merge the 51 into the Coast Road network and shake off the 'Micky Mouse' route image
- 305 (every 30 minutes / 60 minutes) - Basically same as 51, half hourly Newcastle - Holystone Park, hourly to Whitley Bay
- 306 (every 30 minutes) - Newcastle to Tynemouth, additionally serves Hadrian Park
- 307 (every 30 minutes) - via Cobalt instead of Hadrian Park
- 308 (every 30 minutes) - Newcastle to Whitley Bay only, additionally serves Battle Hill Drive and via Marden Estate rather than Hillheads
- 309 (every 30 minutes) - Same route as now
- X38 (every 20 minutes) - Blyth to Coast Road / Wallsend Dene (same as current 308) then non-stop to Civic Centre, St Mary's Place and Haymarket
* Every 6 minutes Newcastle - Station Road
* Frequent Newcastle - Battle Hill service
* Relatively even 4x buses per hour Newcastle - Billy Mill
* Relatively even 4x buses per hour Newcastle - High Farm
* New X38 will be popular with 306/308 intentionally slowed down to 'encourage' passengers to use X38
(10 Jun 2023, 12:04 am)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Or.....an option to fully merge the 51 into the Coast Road network and shake off the 'Micky Mouse' route image
- 305 (every 30 minutes / 60 minutes) - Basically same as 51, half hourly Newcastle - Holystone Park, hourly to Whitley Bay
- 306 (every 30 minutes) - Newcastle to Tynemouth, additionally serves Hadrian Park
- 307 (every 30 minutes) - via Cobalt instead of Hadrian Park
- 308 (every 30 minutes) - Newcastle to Whitley Bay only, additionally serves Battle Hill Drive and via Marden Estate rather than Hillheads
- 309 (every 30 minutes) - Same route as now
- X38 (every 20 minutes) - Blyth to Coast Road / Wallsend Dene (same as current 308) then non-stop to Civic Centre, St Mary's Place and Haymarket
* Every 6 minutes Newcastle - Station Road
* Frequent Newcastle - Battle Hill service
* Relatively even 4x buses per hour Newcastle - Billy Mill
* Relatively even 4x buses per hour Newcastle - High Farm
* New X38 will be popular with 306/308 intentionally slowed down to 'encourage' passengers to use X38
Do the majority of residents in those areas travel to and from Newcastle?
Do the existing buses on the corridor get so full, they need to have this sort of frequency?
Is there room for growth?
If you can answer yes to at least two of those questions, then you may have a point.
If you can't answer yes to more than one of those questions, then I declare the whole Coast Road discussion null and void and as a consequence, you need to spend the rest of your days doing bus engine impressions.