(08 Dec 2023, 6:16 pm)garym67 wrote [ -> ]How about the X30/X31 actually turning up when they are meant to? The reliability is appalling and must be one of the worst performing routes with frequent gaps in the service. Was hoping it might be better after the strikes but no, this week has been as bad as ever.
If the 6/12 could be sorted to interwork again......extending the X30 to Lanchester in place of the 6 and a long layover at Stanley for the X31 (with same bus used for vans / reliefs from Consett) would be the better idea.
Something like
X31 (STY > NCL) - X30 (NCL > LAN) - X30 (LAN > NCL) - X31 (NCL < STY)
Then that sorts the reliability issues out with a decent layover in Lanchester and a long layover / remote relief in Stanley. And......it sorts the Ellison Road issue out too with no other routes depending on it! From what I've heard tonight with the HMRC/DSS moves from the 3x Offices (Tyneview, Longbenton, Washington).......the X10 won't get any quieter with the latter with people travelling into Newcastle from nearby areas, and will need more suitable vehicles if frequency increased or X9 re-introduced.
So if the X30/X31 change was made.......
- 6336-40 - Consett - X30/X31 (PVR 4 + 1 spare)
- 6341-55 - Riverside - X9/X10 (PVR 7)** & X21 (PVR 8)**
** Spares would consist of 6377 or B9TL's with E400's taking priority on X9/X10.
(08 Dec 2023, 8:36 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]If the 6/12 could be sorted to interwork again......extending the X30 to Lanchester in place of the 6 and a long layover at Stanley for the X31 (with same bus used for vans / reliefs from Consett) would be the better idea.
Something like
X31 (STY > NCL) - X30 (NCL > LAN) - X30 (LAN > NCL) - X31 (NCL < STY)
Then that sorts the reliability issues out with a decent layover in Lanchester and a long layover / remote relief in Stanley. And......it sorts the Ellison Road issue out too with no other routes depending on it! From what I've heard tonight with the HMRC/DSS moves from the 3x Offices (Tyneview, Longbenton, Washington).......the X10 won't get any quieter with the latter with people travelling into Newcastle from nearby areas, and will need more suitable vehicles if frequency increased or X9 re-introduced.
So if the X30/X31 change was made.......
- 6336-40 - Consett - X30/X31 (PVR 4 + 1 spare)
- 6341-55 - Riverside - X9/X10 (PVR 7)** & X21 (PVR 8)**
** Spares would consist of 6377 or B9TL's with E400's taking priority on X9/X10.
Driver cancellations are the problem for the X30/X31 rather than time keeping, I believe.
For the 12 though if there's no plans for that or the 57 to ever be upped in frequency again, you'd probably be better merging the 12 and 57 as one super route. If I've worked it out it should be around a 168 minute round trip so would be a PVR 6, which is a reduction of 1 (currently 7). Could move E200MMC's back to Riverside and allocate them on that and the X66 and give a much needed improvement for both.
The 57 sitting around for 20 minutes or so in Newcastle, as it does now, is bad timetabling. Would also give a direct link from Newcastle Business Park to Gateshead and beyond.
12 and the 57 should be every 15 and 20 mins respectively
(08 Dec 2023, 10:01 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Driver cancellations are the problem for the X30/X31 rather than time keeping, I believe.
For the 12 though if there's no plans for that or the 57 to ever be upped in frequency again, you'd probably be better merging the 12 and 57 as one super route. If I've worked it out it should be around a 168 minute round trip so would be a PVR 6, which is a reduction of 1 (currently 7). Could move E200MMC's back to Riverside and allocate them on that and the X66 and give a much needed improvement for both.
The 57 sitting around for 20 minutes or so in Newcastle, as it does now, is bad timetabling. Would also give a direct link from Newcastle Business Park to Gateshead and beyond.
Doesn't sound a bad idea to be honest.
However, something needs done with Consett's interworking patterns, as the E400's would be way more suited elsewhere where the extra muscle is needed.
A single fleet of E400 covering both the X10 & X21 at Riverside would sort a number of issues out including not having the same vehicles getting a daily hammering down the A19, plus would allow the TVT B9TL's to be parked up on Sundays with E400s covering the Sunday 10/10A/10B boards.
(09 Dec 2023, 10:09 am)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Doesn't sound a bad idea to be honest.
However, something needs done with Consett's interworking patterns, as the E400's would be way more suited elsewhere where the extra muscle is needed.
A single fleet of E400 covering both the X10 & X21 at Riverside would sort a number of issues out including not having the same vehicles getting a daily hammering down the A19, plus would allow the TVT B9TL's to be parked up on Sundays with E400s covering the Sunday 10/10A/10B boards.
I'm not sure how feasible it would be or how many people use the 47 from Shotley Bridge to Newcastle, but I've always thought it would be better for Hexham / Consett to run the 10/10A/10B. If you extended the 10A runs from Blackhall Mill through to Consett in replacement of the 47. It means that you wouldn't have dead running for miles from Riverside, in return Riverside could take over the X30/X31 and possibly the 6 which then might help with your Enviro idea there.
If engineering needed to work on one of the vehicles then they could just swap it out at Consett and keep flipping the vehicles around similar to Arriva does at Alnwick and Whitby. Dead running from Stanley will be closer than Hexham from Riverside.
Here are my GNE Gateshead changes if I were to overhaul the lot...
If a service is not mentioned expect it not to change.
Please see this
map for a diagram.
1/1A (Blue) = Winlaton <--> Whitley Bay
6 (pink) = Newcastle <--> Stanley
[6/1/30 merged] (one 6 an hour continues to south Stanley = new connections)
6A (dark pink) = Newcastle <--> Stanley [6/643/merged] (combines with 6 to provide 20 min frequency on common sections)
51 (Purple) = Metrocentre - Gateshead Loop [51/93/96 merged]
52 (purple) = Metrocentre - Gateshead Loop [52/94/1 merged]
53/54 = stay the same
55 (yellow) = Newcastle - Eighton Banks (could continue to the galleries?) [New service covering the 25, enabling 25 to become X25]
56 (orange) = stay the same
57 (green) = Winlaton - Wardley [12/57/51 merged]
58 (Dark Red) = stay the same
59 (Red) = Newcastle - Leam Lane Estate [94/57 merged]
X30 (gold) = Newcastle - Lanchester (X30 now extended to Lanchester)
X31 (gold) = Newcastle - Lanchester
X71 (gold) = Newcastle - Consett (X71 now through Lobley Hill estate and to burnopfield community centre)
1/1A = Every 30 mins each (combined Swalwell - Tynemouth every 15)
6/6A = Comb. Every 20 (combined Newcastle - Burnopfield every 20 & new connection with 1x 6 an hour extending to South Stanley)
51/52 = every 20 mins each (combined Gateshead - Lobley Hill every 10, improved East/West Gateshead and Metrocentre connectivity)
57 = Every 30 mins (combines with 55 & 56, also provides new cross city & Tyne connections)
59 = Every 30 mins (creates new Newcastle - Team Valley links & provides Leam Lane with a faster journey and new connections)
X30/X31 = Every 60 mins (combined Lanchester - Newcastle Every 30, faster connections to Newcastle from Lanchester)
(13 Dec 2023, 1:16 am)logidoodah wrote [ -> ]Here are my GNE Gateshead changes if I were to overhaul the lot...
If a service is not mentioned expect it not to change.
Please see this map for a diagram.
Quite like some of your ideas but think I'd rejig it a bit in the Gateshead side to improve it a bit so it's something like this:
[
attachment=10622]
25 - Yellow Line: Small deviation but much direct than currently
50/51 - Red Line (Every 15 Minutes Each): Newcastle, Gateshead, Team Valley, Low Fell, Wrekenton, QE, Felling, Heworth, Gateshead Ind Estate, New Arena, Newcastle Loop
52 - Purple Line (Every 30 Minutes): Gateshead to Leam Lane
53/54: No longer uses Swing Bridge and goes via Tyne Bridge
56: No Changes
57 - Green Line (Every 20 Minutes): Wardley to Winlaton
58/59 - Brown Line (Every 20 Minutes Each): Newcastle to Fewster Square Loop
Other changes:
1/1A - Keep them going to Whickham but dropped down to every 30 minute each, there's the 6/7 offering services instead.
6/7(6A) - Up the 7 (was 6A) to every 30 minutes, send 6 direct from Burnopfield to Whickham, extend 7 to Consett instead of Stanley for operational reasons and give Leadgate a Metro Centre link.
49/49A - No changes
It would cover some links you've missed there like Felling to Wrekenton (now 50/51) and Team Valley / QE to Heworth was probably a little bit infrequent. The 50/51 would be popular as it links all the important places as one service and the new 58/59 gives a quicker service for some to Newcastle.
(13 Dec 2023, 1:16 am)logidoodah wrote [ -> ]Here are my GNE Gateshead changes if I were to overhaul the lot...
If a service is not mentioned expect it not to change.
Please see this map for a diagram.
...
Following on from my Gateshead proposals...here is my GNE South Tyneside & Washington changes...
Again if service is not mentioned expect no change.
Please see this
map for diagram
24 (red) = South Shields <--> Sunderland (no change)
25 (dark red) = Lukes Lane <--> South Shields [5/26 merged] (combined 15 min freq with 26 on common sections, interworks with 24)
26 (peach) = Bill Quay <--> South Shields [26 variation] (combined 15 min freq with 25 on common sections, interworks with 24 & new route around Jarrow to open links)
27 (silver) = Newcastle <--> South Shields (no change)
X1 = No Change
2 (pink) = Concord & Washington <--> Sunderland [2/84/85 merged] (combines with 3 for 10 min freq on common sections)
3 (purple) = Concord & Washington <--> Sunderland [2A/84/85 merged] (combines with 2 for 10 min freq on common sections)
4/4A (light pink) = Heworth <--> Houghton-le-Spring [4/84/85 merged] (combined 15 min freq, 4A deviates via Oxclose Rd & Usworth)
8 (green) = Sunderland <--> Stanley [8/82 merged] (only adds a few mins overall to the current route)
50 (blue) = South Shields <--> Durham [route change] (route reverts to not serve Ayton Road - this is served by the 2/82)
55 (yellow) = Gateshead <--> Washington Galleries [81/82/25 merged] (new links created and interworks with 55A)
55A (Brown) = Gateshead <--> Washington Galleries [81/82/25 merged] (new links created and interworks with 55)
56 (orange) = Newcastle <--> Sunderland
2/3 | Comb. Every 10 mins (improved connections from Washington to Sunderland)
4/4A | Every 15 mins (only change is 4A serving Usworth and Oxclose Lane improving connections)
8 | Every 30 mins (new is not that much longer plus will pick up passengers rather than bombing down a motorway)
25/26 | Comb. Every 30 mins (improved integration due to not interworking with the 9. Therefore 24 - 25/26 - 25/26 - 24)
55 | Every 60 mins (fills in the gaps currently in the network and can get rid of the TB22/TB23)
55A | Every 60 mins (fills in the gaps currently in the network and can get rid of the TB22/TB23)
New Quaylink Services:
Q3 (Every 30 Minutes): Great Park - Featherstone Park - Polworth Drive - Regent Centre - Gosforth - Newcastle - St Peters - Wallsend - 317 Route to North Shields
Q4 (Every 30 Minutes): Great Park - Brunton Lane - Hollywood Avenue - Regent Centre - Gosforth - Newcastle - St Peters
Q3/Q4 (Every 15 Minutes): Great Park - St Peters
35: Additionally serve Jesmond as Nexus consultation.
317 (Every 30 Minutes): North Shields Ferry to Whitley Bay only or bolted on the end of the 57/57A.
X46: Withdrawn
Reasons for change:
- Removed duplicate X46 through Gosforth
- New Holy Cross to Newcastle links via Quayside
- New Walker through to North Shields links
- New evening service for Polworth Drive and Hollywood Avenue (both Q3 and Q4 running on an evening).
- Increased frequency for Polworth Drive and Hollywood Avenue (1 BPH -> 2 BPH)
- New evening service between Wallsend and St Peter's for leisure purposes especially Hoults Yard
- Increased frequency for Great Park users, coming from Jesmond removal with 35 change and X46 removal and removing too many buses between St Peter's and Wallsend.
- Loss of direct links to North Tyneside Hospital noted, but there's a brand new interchange to change between buses, if needed.
Seen as there is BSIP money floating about...
This is the opportunity to create bus routes and make other routes faster....
We all love a debate about Hadrian Park (sigh) and Wiltshire Drive (sigh)
But the current format supported by Nexus on an evening and Sunday is not working (41A and 351 impartiular) with an add on of the 342
The area needs a revamp in terms of "public money" aka the tax payer which means we have a fantastic opportunity to do a trial and error
My thoughts also include to use the Coast Road Corridor agreement and the ability to create using "smart ticketing plus" a new quicker and faster brand of ticket for Nexus to promote
If we concentrate on Sunday and evening scenarios as an example of bus services not passenger usage to keep it simple.
My thoughts is to abolish the service 41A on an evening but reinvest the cost savings into another bus...
We have experts on this page who will look into costings and bus usage etc...
My thoughts is operate start a bus service say outside Haymarket bus station go via St Mary Place past civic then at Sandyford turn right and
go past the student accommodation towards byker bridge turn left through Byker High Street and pass chilli Road metro Station and Walkergate metro to Wallsend visit Wallsend Metro Station then operate the 41A to Wiltshire Drive and a one route round the loop and up to Asda Benton round Holystone then visit Northumberland Park and down via Cobalt past the Middle Engine Lane Police Station or silverlink to link with the (Stagecoach 22 hint) then up round the haridan Park loop and operate a 41A route to Mullen Road round the loop again of Wiltshite drive to wallsend and back to haymarket
The 41a secured service could be removed
The 351 secured service could be incorporated
A new ticket of say Nexus secured plus could be created meaning any ticket purchased on a secured service can enable the passenger to get off and use a faster bus to get to the destination
Like a transfer however bus to metro or bus to bus but for no additional cost.
After all the tax payer Is paying for fresh air to operate so there is no real loss
The inconvenience is changing buses but if it saves 200k a year (hypothetical figure) it's advisable to use a trial and error.
Another criticism is gonna be takes too long to Newcastle City Centre ...tuff... that is what the Nexus Secured plus ticket is designed for to make the journey quicker
City centres don't have supermarket's anymore which is why I suggested to go via Wallsend onto Byker meaning morrisons and Asda BnM home bargains poundland MandS to name a few as well as metro stations links new links to cobalt or quicker ones perhaps as well as new links Wallsend to Palmersville Metro using this service may be quicker than sitting on a metro round the loop
Bus services should be connecting communities not following suit and if the tax payer are picking up the cost we need a vested interest on how to make it better or interesting bit save money in the short and long term and take financial risks too
(27 Dec 2023, 11:17 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote [ -> ]Seen as there is BSIP money floating about...
This is the opportunity to create bus routes and make other routes faster....
We all love a debate about Hadrian Park (sigh) and Wiltshire Drive (sigh)
But the current format supported by Nexus on an evening and Sunday is not working (41A and 351 impartiular) with an add on of the 342
The area needs a revamp in terms of "public money" aka the tax payer which means we have a fantastic opportunity to do a trial and error
My thoughts also include to use the Coast Road Corridor agreement and the ability to create using "smart ticketing plus" a new quicker and faster brand of ticket for Nexus to promote
If we concentrate on Sunday and evening scenarios as an example of bus services not passenger usage to keep it simple.
My thoughts is to abolish the service 41A on an evening but reinvest the cost savings into another bus...
We have experts on this page who will look into costings and bus usage etc...
My thoughts is operate start a bus service say outside Haymarket bus station go via St Mary Place past civic then at Sandyford turn right and
go past the student accommodation towards byker bridge turn left through Byker High Street and pass chilli Road metro Station and Walkergate metro to Wallsend visit Wallsend Metro Station then operate the 41A to Wiltshire Drive and a one route round the loop and up to Asda Benton round Holystone then visit Northumberland Park and down via Cobalt past the Middle Engine Lane Police Station or silverlink to link with the (Stagecoach 22 hint) then up round the haridan Park loop and operate a 41A route to Mullen Road round the loop again of Wiltshite drive to wallsend and back to haymarket
The 41a secured service could be removed
The 351 secured service could be incorporated
A new ticket of say Nexus secured plus could be created meaning any ticket purchased on a secured service can enable the passenger to get off and use a faster bus to get to the destination
Like a transfer however bus to metro or bus to bus but for no additional cost.
After all the tax payer Is paying for fresh air to operate so there is no real loss
The inconvenience is changing buses but if it saves 200k a year (hypothetical figure) it's advisable to use a trial and error.
Another criticism is gonna be takes too long to Newcastle City Centre ...tuff... that is what the Nexus Secured plus ticket is designed for to make the journey quicker
City centres don't have supermarket's anymore which is why I suggested to go via Wallsend onto Byker meaning morrisons and Asda BnM home bargains poundland MandS to name a few as well as metro stations links new links to cobalt or quicker ones perhaps as well as new links Wallsend to Palmersville Metro using this service may be quicker than sitting on a metro round the loop
Bus services should be connecting communities not following suit and if the tax payer are picking up the cost we need a vested interest on how to make it better or interesting bit save money in the short and long term and take financial risks too
See I'd do the opposite on the Eastern side and send absolutely nothing towards Newcastle with a little mini network like this using the Northumberland Park interchange
[
attachment=10628]
Each of those services would run every 30 minutes with the Green and Yellow services being ran with little buses and the purple and pink lines being ran with at least MPD's (the purple doing the full 19 route from Cramlington to North Shields).
With proper through ticketing, the timing's will be similar with the Metro change but the services will be reliable as they're not impacted by the serious traffic issues around Corner House or whatever.
The completely pointless W1/W2 would be withdrawn in the process, with places like Wellfield now having a reasonable interchange to head towards town without doubling back. It would solve most the corridors of I want an x service complaints locally. Marden to NT Hospital in particular and up the Cobalt to Northumberland Park so it's turn up and go unlike now.
Some would complain about forced interchanges but it's called integration in most other countries.
(28 Dec 2023, 1:03 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]See I'd do the opposite on the Eastern side and send absolutely nothing towards Newcastle with a little mini network like this using the Northumberland Park interchange
Each of those services would run every 30 minutes with the Green and Yellow services being ran with little buses and the purple and pink lines being ran with at least MPD's (the purple doing the full 19 route from Cramlington to North Shields).
With proper through ticketing, the timing's will be similar with the Metro change but the services will be reliable as they're not impacted by the serious traffic issues around Corner House or whatever.
The completely pointless W1/W2 would be withdrawn in the process, with places like Wellfield now having a reasonable interchange to head towards town without doubling back. It would solve most the corridors of I want an x service complaints locally. Marden to NT Hospital in particular and up the Cobalt to Northumberland Park so it's turn up and go unlike now.
Some would complain about forced interchanges but it's called integration in most other countries.
'The Metro mini's'
To be honest......this wouldn't be the worst idea in the world! Surely this is what the BSIP should be used for and backed by by TNE.
As you say with through ticketing and proper integration including timetabling, could be onto a winner.
Has there ever been an express 53 or 54? Would a fast Saltwell Road Service (via Central/Redheugh) get used today?
(29 Dec 2023, 1:57 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote [ -> ]Has there ever been an express 53 or 54? Would a fast Saltwell Road Service (via Central/Redheugh) get used today?
Is it not already quick enough as they so that route already.
53 Saltwell Road - Bensham Bank - Central Station via Redheugh Bridge and 54 in reverse. Omitting Gateshead Metro in one direction. Dont think introducing an express would make any difference at all
(28 Dec 2023, 11:37 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]'The Metro mini's'
To be honest......this wouldn't be the worst idea in the world! Surely this is what the BSIP should be used for and backed by by TNE.
As you say with through ticketing and proper integration including timetabling, could be onto a winner.
Yeah totally just makes more sense to me rather than having stuff like the 351 and 354 which go around every housing estate in the world, get delayed at some point - usually at the Newcastle end and as a result regulation kicks in and everything is screwed up.
Northumberland Park is a perfectly fine exchange and within the next year or so will have 6 Metro's an hour plus 2 direct train services to Newcastle Central, it's not as if it's connecting to somewhere like Seaham with 1 train an hour.
Like I'd do something similar for Wallsend, with something like the below working with GNE and their 41:
[
attachment=10629]
The green route being a faster 317 but serving parts of Rosehill, bolted onto the end of either the Q3 or 18 (extended to Wallsend instead of the Q3) then a super local service (purple) which gets parts of the 317, 335, 342, 351 and 354 (none would be replaced) but as one long loop so especially in the Killingworth area people can cross over and get the Quorum links.
Some will winge that they have to change at either Four Lane Ends or Wallsend but they're clearly not using it anyway and again it keeps it away from Newcastle so their not impacted by delays. It makes more sense than now than having a terminus of Hadrian Park and the 342 which goes from everywhere in the world (that would be curtailed at Killingworth).
Regulation and GNE go together like North Korea and Democracy
No problem with Metro integration, I used it for years until it was ruined by deregulation. The only problem I have is frequency. It’s fine for journeys connecting into a 10 minute frequency Metro but the reverse is the problem. If your connection is half hourly you’re left with a long wait at Wallsend bus station if the train is running late - not the best place to wait at any time. Connecting buses need to be at least every 20 minutes at least which I can’t see happening I’m afraid. Frequency is the only thing that will get people to accept transferring which is what I have observed in Europe.
(30 Dec 2023, 10:19 am)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]No problem with Metro integration, I used it for years until it was ruined by deregulation. The only problem I have is frequency. It’s fine for journeys connecting into a 10 minute frequency Metro but the reverse is the problem. If your connection is half hourly you’re left with a long wait at Wallsend bus station if the train is running late - not the best place to wait at any time. Connecting buses need to be at least every 20 minutes at least which I can’t see happening I’m afraid. Frequency is the only thing that will get people to accept transferring which is what I have observed in Europe.
Aye of course, to be fair I could imagine that Killingworth service actually being worthy of it tbh. It's technically replacing 4 services in part anyway (335/342/351/354*) and a bit of the 41A/317 aswell to speed them up.
For the other ones (Whitley services), you could always offer guaranteed connections, so it waits for a specific service and if it's running late, offer a guaranteed connection, nothing really stopping buses waiting at Northumberland Park for a few minutes, unless it's really extreme late (10 mins+).
The service is so short and there's no real bottlenecks it could easily make time back up with a small layover at each end.
*aware it's commercial currently.
(30 Dec 2023, 10:19 am)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]No problem with Metro integration, I used it for years until it was ruined by deregulation. The only problem I have is frequency. It’s fine for journeys connecting into a 10 minute frequency Metro but the reverse is the problem. If your connection is half hourly you’re left with a long wait at Wallsend bus station if the train is running late - not the best place to wait at any time. Connecting buses need to be at least every 20 minutes at least which I can’t see happening I’m afraid. Frequency is the only thing that will get people to accept transferring which is what I have observed in Europe.
I agree that frequency is an important factor, but it's not the only thing.
Price, journey time and routes are others.
Whack in some pleasant waiting environments and a timetable that works for punters (possibly earlier starts in the morning and later finishes in an evening), services going to the places people need/want to be and an operator may stand a chance of succeeding.
Putting all of their eggs in one basket and gambling on titivations or even frequency and they're on a hiding to nothing imo.
But, ultimately these operators need to do three things.
Ask their customers what they would like. Find out why non-bus users don't use the bus and then act on the results.
Of course, there are things out of their control.
There should be more than enough within their control
There is a way we can use integration of forcing passengers to use the metro at stations.
The best example we have is any buses south of tyne terminate at Gateshead (only services that terminate at Newcastle and Market Street etc... )
Eg:- 21 56 X1 x21 etc ...
Have a deal with Metro where During the tyne bridge disruption buses terminate and start at Gateshead the tickets are valid to use the metro to station's Haymarket Momument and central station
Cross services buses like 1 may need to split service short to medium term this will improve reliability as no doubt there will be massive queues and delays
We often see services terminating at Gateshead if they are running late to get back to timetable
Also bear in mind new trains should be more reliable and it is a boost to Gateshead town centre with footfall