North East Buses

(11 May 2023, 7:46 pm)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]Interesting about the 3/4 changes. Is it mainly down to the 4 being quieter down Durham Rd (so picking up in Plains Farm is more beneficial than the 3) or would the 3 be withdrawn completely south of the city centre?

I wonder if all depots are going to be seeing cuts then.  Already rumours that the 6/7 in Hartlepool are going to be cut from 10 to 12 minutes which don’t seem much but half the time they can often run late as it is but that would probably see either 2 of the remaining Manviros off or some the worse E200. I can’t see what else they could do to the rest of the Hartlepool network as it already been cut right down to the bone unless the 3 goes hourly and 1 to every 20 - 30 minutes which would just be a disaster as they already get quite full but if an investment company now own Stagecoach I don’t see them spending much and can just see them asset stripping rather then spending money which goes back to what’s going to happen in Sunderland or rumoured to.

There was a suggestion about Go North East buying Sunderland well apparently they tried to buy Hartlepool and Stagecoach turned them down so if they couldn’t even get Hartlepool then they got no chance with Sunderland although it depends if the new ownership are willing to sell I suppose.

I think GNE possibly buying Hartlepool and SUndlerand Depots would be a great move. It would help with weekly/ monthly tickets, massive frequency increases espically around Southwick, A690, Sheilds

(11 May 2023, 8:55 pm)col87 wrote [ -> ]I wonder if all depots are going to be seeing cuts then.  Already rumours that the 6/7 in Hartlepool are going to be cut from 10 to 12 minutes which don’t seem much but half the time they can often run late as it is but that would probably see either 2 of the remaining Manviros off or some the worse E200. I can’t see what else they could do to the rest of the Hartlepool network as it already been cut right down to the bone unless the 3 goes hourly and 1 to every 20 - 30 minutes which would just be a disaster as they already get quite full but if an investment company now own Stagecoach I don’t see them spending much and can just see them asset stripping rather then spending money which goes back to what’s going to happen in Sunderland or rumoured to.

There was a suggestion about Go North East buying Sunderland well apparently they tried to buy Hartlepool and Stagecoach turned them down so if they couldn’t even get Hartlepool then they got no chance with Sunderland although it depends if the new ownership are willing to sell I suppose.

It's a steady decline to be honest. Going from 10 to 12 to 15 mins might not seem a lot, but if that sets off a chain reaction for demand then it's only a matter of time before evening and Sunday services get cut. Going from every 30 minutes to hourly on evenings/Sundays is much worse than daytime frequencies. That's what I see as the final straw for urban town-estate routes. Then it's just a viscous cycle...

(11 May 2023, 9:02 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I think GNE possibly buying Hartlepool and SUndlerand Depots would be a great move. It would help with weekly/ monthly tickets, massive frequency increases espically around Southwick, A690, Sheilds

Personally don't ever think that will happen in the short term. GNE are trying to cut costs, not expand. Seeing as they've pulled out of Hartlepool a while ago with the X5/X6/X7/X35/55 (or whatever - so many numbers over the years!) suggests they don't want in on Hartlepool. GNE buying Stagecoach's Sunderland depot would probably be refused by the CMA in the first place...

(11 May 2023, 9:02 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I think GNE possibly buying Hartlepool and SUndlerand Depots would be a great move. It would help with weekly/ monthly tickets, massive frequency increases espically around Southwick, A690, Sheilds

I don’t see how GNE buying Sunderland SNE would help. After all, GNE have absolutely butchered their network. It would be like putting an alcoholic in charge of a brewery.

(11 May 2023, 9:38 pm)Economic505 wrote [ -> ]I don’t see how GNE buying Sunderland SNE would help. After all, GNE have absolutely butchered their network. It would be like putting an alcoholic in charge of a brewery. 

An alcoholic would drink the brewery dry. 
GNE would just reduce the number of beers being brewed, rebrand some stuff and then cut some more. 
Then ask for some public money to put the beer on life support and ignore any suggestions about brewing a new type of beer.

(11 May 2023, 3:02 pm)F114TML wrote [ -> ]Latest rumours are; 4 via Plains Farm, 12 withdrawn, 8 to survive (but in what form?), 18 undecided (to quote: "cos it's political" - I believe it's subsidised), 15 minute service on most routes. Remember, they are rumours though (the 12 withdrawal seems likely though given the source).

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I think it's more that they don't want to invest in the depot, or at least invest as little as possible (why do you think the gasbuses are going?), and to cater for the fact we're short of drivers, rather than the routes under-performing - they still seem very salty about the strikes.

The service cuts will allow the withdrawal of the remaining 3900s (of which IIRC there's only 6), and some of the gasbuses. It'll also mean they don't have to rely so much on overtime, thus reducing pay costs. The numbers being bounced around are 35 duties and 22 buses.

Seems an awful lot of vehicles lost for the level of changes being suggested so far?  Previous rounds of cuts even the fairly savage ones that saw off the likes of 5, 19 etc I think were still in single figures of vehicle reductions overall.  22 buses must be getting on for 25% of the PVR/allocation.  If it is of that scale, going to be nigh on impossible for Nexus to do much of a sticking plaster job on the gaps it leaves.

(12 May 2023, 2:11 am)stagecoachbusdepot wrote [ -> ]Seems an awful lot of vehicles lost for the level of changes being suggested so far?  Previous rounds of cuts even the fairly savage ones that saw off the likes of 5, 19 etc I think were still in single figures of vehicle reductions overall.  22 buses must be getting on for 25% of the PVR/allocation.  If it is of that scale, going to be nigh on impossible for Nexus to do much of a sticking plaster job on the gaps it leaves.

This is what I thought but that's what people are claiming. Fleetlist says PVR 77 plus10 spare, so if they plan on wiping out that buffer, it'll be closer to 12 buses. We'll just have to wait and see.

12066 is on the 62 this morning, it's really showing its age, sounds really rough and internally is looking abit shabby

(12 May 2023, 6:58 am)toward6931 wrote [ -> ]12066 is on the 62 this morning, it's really showing its age, sounds really rough and internally is looking abit shabby

That’ll probably break down sooner rather than later, normally the case when they don’t sound very healthy.

(11 May 2023, 9:37 pm)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]It's a steady decline to be honest. Going from 10 to 12 to 15 mins might not seem a lot, but if that sets off a chain reaction for demand then it's only a matter of time before evening and Sunday services get cut. Going from every 30 minutes to hourly on evenings/Sundays is much worse than daytime frequencies. That's what I see as the final straw for urban town-estate routes. Then it's just a viscous cycle...
Personally don't ever think that will happen in the short term. GNE are trying to cut costs, not expand. Seeing as they've pulled out of Hartlepool a while ago with the X5/X6/X7/X35/55 (or whatever - so many numbers over the years!) suggests they don't want in on Hartlepool. GNE buying Stagecoach's Sunderland depot would probably be refused by the CMA in the first place...

I agree going from 10-15 mins is a massive cut, 10 to 12 is okay, but when it becomes every 15 mins if ones broken down that 30 mins instead of 20 or 24 mins. 

GNE did pull of out hartlepool but in fairness im surprised it didn't happens sooner as its was every 30 mins service, running daytime while ANE had a service every 15 mins. 

Also possibly the CMA would not let it happen but it would be the best idea for passengers. Basically every bus in SUnderland can be used with the same ticket all day around, that would be great for passengers.

(12 May 2023, 12:07 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I agree going from 10-15 mins is a massive cut, 10 to 12 is okay, but when it becomes every 15 mins if ones broken down that 30 mins instead of 20 or 24 mins. 

GNE did pull of out hartlepool but in fairness im surprised it didn't happens sooner as its was every 30 mins service, running daytime while ANE had a service every 15 mins. 

Also possibly the CMA would not let it happen but it would be the best idea for passengers. Basically every bus in SUnderland can be used with the same ticket all day around, that would be great for passengers.

I’d prefer it if SCNE took over GNE. Despite Stagecoach faults, their network is an oasis of stability compared to the chaos of GNE.

Any further news on Sunderland 

Losing the gas buses for hybrids 
And service overhaul

(12 May 2023, 12:13 pm)Economic505 wrote [ -> ]I’d prefer it if SCNE took over GNE. Despite Stagecoach faults, their network is an oasis of stability compared to the chaos of GNE.

I'm pretty sure such a takeover would almost certainly be blocked by the CMA.

I wonder, if Stagecoach will go back to some of their pre-covid changes, with the main 2 confirmed (via VOSA at the time) were:

4 - Downhill to Thorney close
23 - renumbered 22 - Doxford Park to Dene Estate

(13 May 2023, 11:46 am)Michael wrote [ -> ]I wonder, if Stagecoach will go back to some of their pre-covid changes, with the main 2 confirmed (via VOSA at the time) were:

4 - Downhill to Thorney close
23 - renumbered 22 - Doxford Park to Dene Estate

Fun fact - these are still programmed into the destination display.

(13 May 2023, 12:36 pm)F114TML wrote [ -> ]Fun fact - these are still programmed into the destination display.

Wonder why they didn't remove them?

Be interesting, if those changes still go ahead, wouldn't mind a overhaul of the Sunderland services, I think its now needed.

(13 May 2023, 1:30 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]
Wonder why they didn't remove them?

Be interesting, if those changes still go ahead, wouldn't mind a overhaul of the Sunderland services, I think its now needed.

Probably didn't see the point - they haven't removed the RIP Queen one, just moved it further down the list. There are (or at least were until January) the Seasider ones still there (Sunderland buses also have all the destinations for Shields depot because... of reasons).

There's one for the Jubilee, a few on the Ecos still reference the Air Show. Tbh, unless the units start to run low on memory, there's little point deleting them, just shift them down the list, cos drivers generally won't find them (unless they're really bored or curious). If they were to re-introduce the idea of the 4 to Thorney and the 22, they wouldn't need to remake all the blinds.

E400MMC 10651 on 685 - 15.52 heading east in Brampton but not tracking on bustimes.

While on the subject of old destination displays I know for years afterwards Stagecoach Hartlepool still had the displays for the service 5 and possibly the 516 and 527 as well although not sure if they would still be there now

(13 May 2023, 11:46 am)Michael wrote [ -> ]I wonder, if Stagecoach will go back to some of their pre-covid changes, with the main 2 confirmed (via VOSA at the time) were:

4 - Downhill to Thorney close
23 - renumbered 22 - Doxford Park to Dene Estate

I agree with these changes as it's stops similar services going different places only imo. 

One thing I don't get is why change from 23 to 22? Surely it would be better numbered to the 2 then it's similar to 3&4 as well as E2 on the north side....

I've seen the 4 rammed on a morning tbh, coming from North Sunderland presumably to Doxford Park, could you not have

4 - Downhill to Thorney (every 30 mins)
5 - Dene Estate to Doxford Park (every 30 mins)
22 - Downhill to Dene Estate (every 30 mins
23 Thorney to Dene Estate (every 30 mins)

(not sure if i've confused myself even more)

But basically what im trying to say is why don't you have 4 routes 30 mins each so the connections all still say just less frequent

(15 May 2023, 10:22 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I've seen the 4 rammed on a morning tbh, coming from North Sunderland presumably to Doxford Park, could you not have

4 - Downhill to Thorney (every 30 mins)
5 - Dene Estate to Doxford Park (every 30 mins)
22 - Downhill to Dene Estate (every 30 mins
23 Thorney to Dene Estate (every 30 mins)

(not sure if i've confused myself even more)

But basically what im trying to say is why don't you have 4 routes 30 mins each so the connections all still say just less frequent

Your 22 route is pointless and would be like a 10 mins journey if that from end to end.... *Enter face slap emoji* ?

(15 May 2023, 10:24 pm)logidoodah wrote [ -> ]Your 22 route is pointless and would be like a 10 mins journey if that from end to end.... *Enter face slap emoji* ?

23 - Dene Estate - Thorney Close (every 30 mins)
4 - Downhill - Doxford Park (every 30 mins)
22 - Dene Estate - Doxford Park (every 30 mins) 
5 - Downhill - Thorney Close (every 30 mins)

Is this better, I think I've unconfused myself

(15 May 2023, 10:22 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I've seen the 4 rammed on a morning tbh, coming from North Sunderland presumably to Doxford Park, could you not have

4 - Downhill to Thorney (every 30 mins)
5 - Dene Estate to Doxford Park (every 30 mins)
22 - Downhill to Dene Estate (every 30 mins
23 Thorney to Dene Estate (every 30 mins)

(not sure if i've confused myself even more)

But basically what im trying to say is why don't you have 4 routes 30 mins each so the connections all still say just less frequent

I've seen quite a few 4s rammed - in nearly every case though, it's an E200.

(16 May 2023, 6:57 am)The F114TML wrote [ -> ]I've seen quite a few 4s rammed - in nearly every case though, it's an E200.

So what’s the solution then. If Stagecoach are not investing in many new buses for North East yet Hartlepool and Sunderland are desperate for new buses and Newcastle from what I read on here also need some more then how do you solve the issue without resorting to service cuts making the networks even worse ?   

Now I don’t know if it would work but I think one suggestion could be this. 

The Manviro 200s continue to be taking out of service and when available any of the better E200s and darts get cascaded to the region to be shared between Shields Hartlepool and Sunderland as short term solutions. This could continue to see the 397s withdrawn and the worse of the Hartlepool fleet been withdrawn.  Longer term I think the majority of shields and Hartlepool since most are only short distance town routes could be done by electric buses if and when full size come on to the market.  If Newcastle as expected are getting new buses then some of the current Enviro 400 could be cascaded to Sunderland.  I would also look at getting any Cascaded Enviro 400 to Stockton and possibly a few for Hartlepool for peak time / School holiday service 1 and the 6/7 but if Stockton could get 8 - 10 then in the short term again that could release some of the Man 18.220 or Enviro 300 to Hartlepool.  I think potentially this might happen in the next few weeks anyway if and when the traffic commissioner grants approval for the Saltburn 1/2 services to start with either 3-4 darts or 3-4 enviros going to Stockton for it with most likely the enviros or mans coming to Hartlepool in return.  Am thinking it’s a PVR of 3 so 3 for the services and one spare would be about right.  It’s not perfect but I think the current that’s really the only way forward but Stagecoach for the 2024 orders really have to do something as Hartlepool can’t really continue as it is for much longer and Sunderland needs replacements and Shields at the looks still has a load of Manviros to replace so something is going to have to be done.

Thing is, the 4 is a mixed allocation of 3x E200s and 6x Gasbus or E300. I don't know the specifics of the passenger flows but it could be helped by allocating 200s to boards that don't get really busy, if possible.

(16 May 2023, 8:02 am)col87 wrote [ -> ] So what’s the solution then. If Stagecoach are not investing in many new buses for North East yet Hartlepool and Sunderland are desperate for new buses and Newcastle from what I read on here also need some more then how do you solve the issue without resorting to service cuts making the networks even worse ?    

Now I don’t know if it would work but I think one suggestion could be this. 

The Manviro 200s continue to be taking out of service and when available any of the better E200s and darts get cascaded to the region to be shared between Shields Hartlepool and Sunderland as short term solutions. This could continue to see the 397s withdrawn and the worse of the Hartlepool fleet been withdrawn.  Longer term I think the majority of shields and Hartlepool since most are only short distance town routes could be done by electric buses if and when full size come on to the market.  If Newcastle as expected are getting new buses then some of the current Enviro 400 could be cascaded to Sunderland.  I would also look at getting any Cascaded Enviro 400 to Stockton and possibly a few for Hartlepool for peak time / School holiday service 1 and the 6/7 but if Stockton could get 8 - 10 then in the short term again that could release some of the Man 18.220 or Enviro 300 to Hartlepool.  I think potentially this might happen in the next few weeks anyway if and when the traffic commissioner grants approval for the Saltburn 1/2 services to start with either 3-4 darts or 3-4 enviros going to Stockton for it with most likely the enviros or mans coming to Hartlepool in return.  Am thinking it’s a PVR of 3 so 3 for the services and one spare would be about right.  It’s not perfect but I think the current that’s really the only way forward but Stagecoach for the 2024 orders really have to do something as Hartlepool can’t really continue as it is for much longer and Sunderland needs replacements and Shields at the looks still has a load of Manviros to replace so something is going to have to be done.

Answers on a postcard to all operators. 
Cos they only seem to think the same and have the same logic. 

Time they took some responsibility for actually improving and growing the network as opposed to slashing like a mad axeman in the hope that saving money somehow makes money.

(16 May 2023, 8:02 am)col87 wrote [ -> ]So what’s the solution then. If Stagecoach are not investing in many new buses for North East yet Hartlepool and Sunderland are desperate for new buses and Newcastle from what I read on here also need some more then how do you solve the issue without resorting to service cuts making the networks even worse ?   

Now I don’t know if it would work but I think one suggestion could be this. 

The Manviro 200s continue to be taking out of service and when available any of the better E200s and darts get cascaded to the region to be shared between Shields Hartlepool and Sunderland as short term solutions. This could continue to see the 397s withdrawn and the worse of the Hartlepool fleet been withdrawn.  Longer term I think the majority of shields and Hartlepool since most are only short distance town routes could be done by electric buses if and when full size come on to the market.  If Newcastle as expected are getting new buses then some of the current Enviro 400 could be cascaded to Sunderland.  I would also look at getting any Cascaded Enviro 400 to Stockton and possibly a few for Hartlepool for peak time / School holiday service 1 and the 6/7 but if Stockton could get 8 - 10 then in the short term again that could release some of the Man 18.220 or Enviro 300 to Hartlepool.  I think potentially this might happen in the next few weeks anyway if and when the traffic commissioner grants approval for the Saltburn 1/2 services to start with either 3-4 darts or 3-4 enviros going to Stockton for it with most likely the enviros or mans coming to Hartlepool in return.  Am thinking it’s a PVR of 3 so 3 for the services and one spare would be about right.  It’s not perfect but I think the current that’s really the only way forward but Stagecoach for the 2024 orders really have to do something as Hartlepool can’t really continue as it is for much longer and Sunderland needs replacements and Shields at the looks still has a load of Manviros to replace so something is going to have to be done.

The 1/2 in East Cleveland is simply two buses, supposedly to be E200MMCs which will need displacing from the 36/37/38 by two other full size singles.


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(16 May 2023, 6:14 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]The 1/2 in East Cleveland is simply two buses, supposedly to be E200MMCs which will need displacing from the 36/37/38 by two other full size singles.


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so at the minute Stagecoach have quite a mess to sort out. I suppose  two of the long 05 plate Enviro 300s could be used on 36 but then my understanding is one of them has to be on the 35 due to school runs. That then means taking a full size Manviro 300 which then leaves it short to covet the 52 57 58 61.  The better solution would have been take a few from Hartlepool or one of the 397s from shields and use them on it.

(16 May 2023, 10:53 pm)col87 wrote [ -> ]so at the minute Stagecoach have quite a mess to sort out. I suppose  two of the long 05 plate Enviro 300s could be used on 36 but then my understanding is one of them has to be on the 35 due to school runs. That then means taking a full size Manviro 300 which then leaves it short to covet the 52 57 58 61.  The better solution would have been take a few from Hartlepool or one of the 397s from shields and use them on it.

Even the 05 plate enviro 300s cant handle that run i get on it myself it must be one if tue busiest school runs in teesside