(06 Sep 2021, 10:03 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Interesting take but not sure I agree. Personally I think there's more competition now than there ever has been now but it's not from other bus operators it's cars. The majority of households have more than one car nowadays and pretty much anyone can if they want to.
Back in the 80's that would be unheard of for most families especially in poorer areas to have 2 cars between them like nowadays. Independents wouldn't be able to make money nowadays if they tried and that's not because of GNE etc it's just lack of demand. There's also the Metro which has had a massive impact in a lot of areas aswell for better really (unless your looking from a purely bus point of view).
Competition argubly makes things worse, you just look at North Tyneside, Hartlepool, South Shields / Sunderland and Peterlee. The 4 areas with the most competition and argubly the 4 areas with the most fractured networks aswell with Stagecoach at South Shields and Hartlepool and Peterlee (GNE) being low cost depots and there's an awful lot of subsidised buses in the areas aswell even known they're all urban / semi urban (for Peterlee) areas.
In some ways competition can make things worse like in the scenarios you said, but in other ways lack of competition is not a good thing for the level of service provided.
In areas where there's a lack of competition and one operator has a monopoly, they will most likely provide the bare minimum level of service that they can possibly get away with. Therefore you tend to end up with scenarios such as the frequency of a service on a corridor not being as high as it should be etc.
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St George Travel along with others such as North Rider, Compass Travel and George Bell closed down due to contract changes requiring low floor buses at a time when the cost of them was at a premium especially since these operators ran small sized buses.
(05 Sep 2021, 4:10 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Riverside operated the X30 long before it was upgraded to X-lines.
It was always said when Go North East diverted some of its StreetDecks to Oxford Bus Company that a new interworking pattern was planned to make use of the vehicles that remained at Go North East. These new interworking patterns were always going to see the evening X30 become operated by Consett (I think this has been said before too), but we have been in a global pandemic for the past year and a half which has prevented these schedule changes from taking place (due to the conditions of the government support package).
Whilst the plan has actually since evolved over the past 18 months, following local authority feedback, seeing the creation of services like the 47/47A and the curtailment of the X30 at Stanley, the schedule changes have been brought in at the earliest opportunity (and with that, the evening operation of the X30 transferring to Consett) and this issue addressed.
Whilst the point you make is the same, operationally the X15 is slightly different and a more difficult one to resolve. It is one that Go North East are aware of, but at this stage couldn't be resolved. The Venture minibuses are used on a night because minibus drivers (who are paid less than a 'big bus' established driver with more years experience) operate this service. It'd be massively inefficient and add a lot of extra cost to have the X15 operated by X-lines buses on a night, when passenger numbers are considerably lower than they are during the day.
I haven't checked and no doubt someone will quite quickly come back and tell me I'm wrong and this has been missed, but a note should have been put in the timetable to highlight that those journeys aren't operated by an X-lines bus (the least Go North East could do!)
I think a wrong branded or coloured bus on any service isn’t particularly great. One off occurrences is fine and it’s always been the case a bus of any colour is better than none at all. However I do think allocations purposely being wrong is flawed as a concept. Evenings is bad enough, but wrong allocations to be done throughout the day on Sundays is particularly bad. The minibus vs double decker is the most complex one yet, because while I fully understand the business related matters as to why this occurs (and I believe Venture solos have done the evening X5/X15/15/15A since those buses were bought) going from a spacious double decker to a small than average single decker is a downgrade in customer experience and they’re not the same standard as XLINES or as new inside.
For other areas, such as Deptford’s Berries and Blues on the 2A and 61, could something not be done for instance having two buses at the interchange so while the driver has duty board 61-61-2A-2A, he/her doesn’t stay with the same bus and transfers to the correct branded vehicle waiting for them at the interchange? This may have been explored, just popped into my head when you often see vehicles just waiting in the layover areas of bus stations. Perhaps not practical during Monday-Saturday daytimes but it’s mainly evenings and Sundays I’m thinking here.
(07 Sep 2021, 9:55 am)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]I think a wrong branded or coloured bus on any service isn’t particularly great. One off occurrences is fine and it’s always been the case a bus of any colour is better than none at all. However I do think allocations purposely being wrong is flawed as a concept. Evenings is bad enough, but wrong allocations to be done throughout the day on Sundays is particularly bad. The minibus vs double decker is the most complex one yet, because while I fully understand the business related matters as to why this occurs (and I believe Venture solos have done the evening X5/X15/15/15A since those buses were bought) going from a spacious double decker to a small than average single decker is a downgrade in customer experience and they’re not the same standard as XLINES or as new inside.
For other areas, such as Deptford’s Berries and Blues on the 2A and 61, could something not be done for instance having two buses at the interchange so while the driver has duty board 61-61-2A-2A, he/her doesn’t stay with the same bus and transfers to the correct branded vehicle waiting for them at the interchange? This may have been explored, just popped into my head when you often see vehicles just waiting in the layover areas of bus stations. Perhaps not practical during Monday-Saturday daytimes but it’s mainly evenings and Sundays I’m thinking here.
I have an idea. Let’s scrap branded buses altogether.
(07 Sep 2021, 10:36 am)Economic505 wrote [ -> ]I have an idea. Let’s scrap branded buses altogether.
In Sunderland, should scrap all branded services except for contract services and 20/56, and all other services into Sunderland and district navy and white using the cooperative style
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(06 Sep 2021, 10:03 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Interesting take but not sure I agree. Personally I think there's more competition now than there ever has been now but it's not from other bus operators it's cars. The majority of households have more than one car nowadays and pretty much anyone can if they want to.
Back in the 80's that would be unheard of for most families especially in poorer areas to have 2 cars between them like nowadays. Independents wouldn't be able to make money nowadays if they tried and that's not because of GNE etc it's just lack of demand. There's also the Metro which has had a massive impact in a lot of areas aswell for better really (unless your looking from a purely bus point of view).
Competition argubly makes things worse, you just look at North Tyneside, Hartlepool, South Shields / Sunderland and Peterlee. The 4 areas with the most competition and argubly the 4 areas with the most fractured networks aswell with Stagecoach at South Shields and Hartlepool and Peterlee (GNE) being low cost depots and there's an awful lot of subsidised buses in the areas aswell even known they're all urban / semi urban (for Peterlee) areas.
Yeah the drastic increase in the use of cars has certainly had a big impact on bus travel, and there's no getting away from that. However, the point I'm making is GNE didn't think twice about creating new services when there was competition around. I remember when Redby started the 42/43/49 in the mid nineties and GNE suddenly had the 242 and 243 running to Sunderland. Also Redby had the 394 to take on the 194 by extending it to serve Newcastle. Then, guess what GNE extended the 194 to Newcastle and also started 191 service around the same time. It's the same with the bus wars they had with Classic. They could easily start up a new service then if they wanted. So I'm not sure whether I agree competition makes everything worse. If anything I think it keeps the big operators on their toes and forces them to provide a better service. I agree about the metro having an impact on some bus services mind. The old X4/X95 and 187/8 used to always get decent loadings until the metro extended to Sunderland which ultimately killed those services off. Having said that the 56 is a popular service which shows things can turnaround.
(07 Sep 2021, 8:30 am)Rapidsnap wrote [ -> ]St George Travel along with others such as North Rider, Compass Travel and George Bell closed down due to contract changes requiring low floor buses at a time when the cost of them was at a premium especially since these operators ran small sized buses.
Thanks for confirming that as I heard otherwise about St George Travel. Surprised these independents weren't offered a bit of financial support to help them upgrade their vehicles to the required spec. The big operators get plenty of help after all. I know for sure the likes OK Travel and Redby were bought out, as I was sure Stanley Travel was but they are still going? I remember reading Classic and GNE negotiated to settle their bus wars.
(07 Sep 2021, 8:30 am)Rapidsnap wrote [ -> ]St George Travel along with others such as North Rider, Compass Travel and George Bell closed down due to contract changes requiring low floor buses at a time when the cost of them was at a premium especially since these operators ran small sized buses.
St George Travel actually had their Operators Licence revoked by the Traffic Commissioner. And one of the partners in North Rider ended up being made bankrupt.
(07 Sep 2021, 5:01 pm)Washingtonian wrote [ -> ]Yeah the drastic increase in the use of cars has certainly had a big impact on bus travel, and there's no getting away from that. However, the point I'm making is GNE didn't think twice about creating new services when there was competition around. I remember when Redby started the 42/43/49 in the mid nineties and GNE suddenly had the 242 and 243 running to Sunderland. Also Redby had the 394 to take on the 194 by extending it to serve Newcastle. Then, guess what GNE extended the 194 to Newcastle and also started 191 service around the same time. It's the same with the bus wars they had with Classic. They could easily start up a new service then if they wanted. So I'm not sure whether I agree competition makes everything worse. If anything I think it keeps the big operators on their toes and forces them to provide a better service. I agree about the metro having an impact on some bus services mind. The old X4/X95 and 187/8 used to always get decent loadings until the metro extended to Sunderland which ultimately killed those services off. Having said that the 56 is a popular service which shows things can turnaround.
Thanks for confirming that as I heard otherwise about St George Travel. Surprised these independents weren't offered a bit of financial support to help them upgrade their vehicles to the required spec. The big operators get plenty of help after all. I know for sure the likes OK Travel and Redby were bought out, as I was sure Stanley Travel was but they are still going? I remember reading Classic and GNE negotiated to settle their bus wars.
I often wondered if people buying those extra cars was partly down to a poor standard of public transport.
(07 Sep 2021, 6:15 pm)busmanT wrote [ -> ]St George Travel actually had their Operators Licence revoked by the Traffic Commissioner. And one of the partners in North Rider ended up being made bankrupt.
Yeah, didn't think that the low-floor thing was the case with St George.
Christ has anyone got any photos of the redby double deckers on the 42 and 43. They have to be the ugliest deckers I’ve ever been on.
I don't have any photos, but from memory they were Marshall bodied Scania BR112DH.
Weardale had a Marshall bodied Olympian (only one batch of 20 built for Bournemouth) -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...6274104333
Derby was a big buyer of them, this one has the later style of body on the Volvo Citybus -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...8150395490
Also Marshall bodied the Volvo Ailsa and the Dennis Dominator.
TBH I don't think there is many left, prob one or two at the most, at least one survives as a cafe.
Two points from observation and two short journeys by bus yesterday. The decimation of the 38/238/938 services in Sunderland has left the route beyond Leechmere/Toll Bar very poorly served, one bus an hour the 'Blonde' . Receipts on this section may be erratic as car ownership is high, but there is a considerable number of people who now have no choice but to either wait ages or use the car.
Then there is the Graphite, The 39/39A. A service that has in the past used Solars, Streetlites, and for a good while double deckers. The 1825 from Salterfen to Borough Road yesterday was maxed out. God knows what that time bus will be like on Friday and Saturday night..
Cant beat a Solo packed with pound shop Pam's
(09 Sep 2021, 6:40 am)54APhotography wrote [ -> ]Two points from observation and two short journeys by bus yesterday. The decimation of the 38/238/938 services in Sunderland has left the route beyond Leechmere/Toll Bar very poorly served, one bus an hour the 'Blonde' . Receipts on this section may be erratic as car ownership is high, but there is a considerable number of people who now have no choice but to either wait ages or use the car.
Then there is the Graphite, The 39/39A. A service that has in the past used Solars, Streetlites, and for a good while double deckers. The 1825 from Salterfen to Borough Road yesterday was maxed out. God knows what that time bus will be like on Friday and Saturday night..
Cant beat a Solo packed with pound shop Pam's
Admittedly I don't know that part of Sunderland too well, but doesn't the 2/2A serve quite a substantial chunk beyond Leechmere/Toll Bar Road? The only difference I can see is the coverage of Burdon Lane and the estate around Ravensworth/Runcorn.
(09 Sep 2021, 7:42 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Admittedly I don't know that part of Sunderland too well, but doesn't the 2/2A serve quite a substantial chunk beyond Leechmere/Toll Bar Road? The only difference I can see is the coverage of Burdon Lane and the estate around Ravensworth/Runcorn.
It's that part I refer to, previously a bouyant service of 38 family and 238/938. The section up to the Junction has increased with the 2/2A, and the rerouting of that through Hollycarrside has compensated for the loss of the aformentioned services.
(09 Sep 2021, 7:45 am)54APhotography wrote [ -> ]It's that part I refer to, previously a bouyant service of 38 family and 238/938. The section up to the Junction has increased with the 2/2A, and the rerouting of that through Hollycarrside has compensated for the loss of the aformentioned services.
Credit to GNE as Sunderland Network map now shows both 2A and 38 which I mentioned being omitted previously. So GNE is listening and acting quick! (despite the map did not indicate ASDA on it)
However, the 3 bus per hour (1x38, 2x2A) was not regularly timed, so there would be a 38 and a 2A arriving same time at ASDA towards city center at :45, then a 30 mins wait for next 2A. Not a perfect timetable.
(09 Sep 2021, 8:18 am)volvob8l wrote [ -> ]Credit to GNE as Sunderland Network map now shows both 2A and 38 which I mentioned being omitted previously. So GNE is listening and acting quick! (despite the map did not indicate ASDA on it)
However, the 3 bus per hour (1x38, 2x2A) was not regularly timed, so there would be a 38 and a 2A arriving same time at ASDA towards city center at :45, then a 30 mins wait for next 2A. Not a perfect timetable.
Indeed, the 38 and 2A were one minute apart at the :45 point.
Noticed as well the information boards at the stops on Leechmere have not been updated and only show the 18
(09 Sep 2021, 8:18 am)volvob8l wrote [ -> ]Credit to GNE as Sunderland Network map now shows both 2A and 38 which I mentioned being omitted previously. So GNE is listening and acting quick! (despite the map did not indicate ASDA on it)
However, the 3 bus per hour (1x38, 2x2A) was not regularly timed, so there would be a 38 and a 2A arriving same time at ASDA towards city center at :45, then a 30 mins wait for next 2A. Not a perfect timetable.
Which will likely result in the demise of the 38 in the next round of changes. If the 2A is taking the bulk of the passengers, it'll make it look like the 38 is doing nothing. Similar to what has already been said about the 71/78 across Lumley.
Speaking of buses arriving together I saw a 21, a 25 and a 28b all heading to newcastle along low fell one night this week. If punters at that time do the same as during the day the 21 will pick up the majority leavening both the 25 and 28b look like now one wants them!
(09 Sep 2021, 9:43 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]Speaking of buses arriving together I saw a 21, a 25 and a 28b all heading to newcastle along low fell one night this week. If punters at that time do the same as during the day the 21 will pick up the majority leavening both the 25 and 28b look like now one wants them!
I've quite often seen people along Durham Road heading towards Newcastle let a 25 go past and then get on the next 21 that turns up. I've never understood why that is as the two services northbound go to exactly the same place
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